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Deereyme66 wrote:

‘so I am left to assume that Israel should just accept a force trying to launch attacks on civilians with the intent of killing them.’

That’s the type of strawmanning you have frequently denounced over the years, and rightly so. No one has said that, no one is implying it, and I suspect no one thinks it. It’s a sad state of affairs when you and JI can’t simply accept indignation of a few posters on Bru, shared by many around the world, about the Israeli government’s and IDFs actions in response to an inexcusable and horrific act. And yes, I am fully aware of how much you have decried their approach.

I do not detect such from Heath, and his own comments are bound to elicit a reaction, yet the finger wagging for overstepping the line is always one way. He was complaining about the conflict right from the off, even the need for such, whenever I tried to explain what the alternative was, I got no answer, only comments such as above about supporting mass murder. If he wants to make that incendiary charge, then I am not going to just be a sponge and accept it. Also, such incendiary charge is going to elicit an emotional reaction. It goes both ways and isn’t just about me having to react purely and perfectly every damn time, while everyone else gets to make whatever incendiary comment they like.

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People might not see it that way, but it does come across that any opinion deviating from others just gets met with snide responses. Yes, I have responded that way, but it gets wearying after so long.

My position is that conflict was inevitable and justifiable after Oct 7th; I can’t see how it could be pretended that it could carry on with the previous norm after that. It would mean pogroms are acceptable, and no nation would accept that for its citizens, nor should it. Yes, this doesn’t mean that every military action by the IDF is justifiable and it hasn’t been. I have done a poor job in explaining that well before, but the sheer recognition of the justifiability (at least in my opinion) for conflict is enough. Still, there is a difference between unintended civilian casualties than an attempt to kill civilians; intent does matter. I have mentioned campaigns like the campaign against ISIS, because they did kill civilians, yet supporting such did not make people ‘cheering on mass murder’. The point of the comparison was to say it’s not inconsistent to say the US-UK-SDF-Kurd led actions against ISIS was justifiable despite civilian casualties, same with this. Of course it is bad, it is not ideal by a long stretch, but I don’t know what the alternative for reasons explained above. For that reason, I put the largest proportion of the blame on Hamas for the cause of this.

That said, I do agree that there needs to be a change in conduct from the IDF, especially since Hamas broke the last ‘pause’. There are fears of what Netanyahu will do with regards to a territorial grab, but international pressure (particularly from the USA) may well prevent that; I don’t think it’s room for complete pessimism in that regard. Though it’s no thanks to Netanyahu. I understand people will think differently and want the war to stop, I get it’s not all because of apologia for Hamas or whatever, I realise I could have previously explained that better. However, I do not see why differences in opinion need to be so snide. Yes, my posts can be long, yes, you may think JI is being condescending, but I think such charges are being made because there is a disagreement and I don’t think the comments from some are better than what they are charging against others. It’s just a messageboard, it’s not important, so I don’t see the need for snideness.

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If only I was ambivalent or apathetic about the intentional mass murder of civilians by ways of pogroms, not the hugely sad case of war*. Then I might be a ‘goody’.

*And, no, that’s not cheering it on. However, no-one has given any reason as to how conflict could have been avoided, so I am left to assume that Israel should just accept a force trying to launch attacks on civilians with the intent of killing them.

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Just Iron

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I will comment, as it is probably a good idea to have a lighter conversation topic. I am less familiar with le Carre. Would you like to expand on your thoughts and knowledge of him, and the documentary itself to help this ignoramus? :-)

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It does seem unnecessarily tense at times, JI. I do agree there. It’s just a messageboard and doesn’t mean much. I have been guilty of reacting at times, so this not about me chiding others, but I don’t get why different opinions need to get so tense.

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Just Iron

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Just going to say that I read that and there is nothing too much to disagree with Wallace from there from me. Some sloppy word choices, but the overall tone is correct. No ceasefire support, so he recognises the reality of the situation, but an urge for restraint that is needed. The IDF may not be committing actions like Saddam’s army, which is what I was objecting to above and the deaths may be because of war, but that doesn’t mean there shouldn’t be calls for more appropriate tactics.

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No worries, my error!

I have stuff to do, so won’t make any more comments on this thread for a while at least, if at all. I understand the worries over it, of course, and agree that Netanyahu and Likud are making things worse. I do worry what their end goal would be, but think there’s enough international pressure to prevent a true annexation or at least it will lose them support. Still, I disagree that anyone but Hamas are the cause of the conflict and hope to see them gone, because true and meaningful peace isn’t possible with them. It will happen again and again and no country is going to sit back and accept attacks on them, with Netanyahu or someone more liberal. I also take care the comment about wanting Israel to be bombarded, because I think the issue is that there is a lack of thought over what happens to Israel, not actual desire.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

‘Dowden trotted out the same meaningless phrase “we expect the Israelis to use restraint” this morning.

They aren’t are they.’

Seemingly being ignored.

Not really, I didn’t have much to say on it, because I have nothing against Dowden, Labour, Sanders or others saying such. They should, and should do more, especially if Netanyahu continues to move the aims away from a response to Oct 7th. There has been talk from Biden’s administration of moving away from support if so, and I agree with it.

The point is that the current situation is a conflict caused by Hamas. Civilian casualties are horrible, but are a feature of every single war. Most civilians killed have so far been a result of situations of war, just like others. Hence the comparisons to the conduct of the US, because to be consistent both would have to be opposed based on civilian casualties. If there was another way than war after Hamas broke ceasefire on Oct 7th, it would be great, but none have given one except for Israel should stop attacking and let Hamas bombard them and think they can successfully repeat Oct 7th, which is not feasible. I am not saying people want Oct 7th to repeat, but this is the situation for Israel. Hamas won’t stop firing missiles or attempting such no matter what. No other state would accept that.

Of course Israel is governed by its own gang of fascists, the IDF has likely had lapse screening for members under Netanyahu. This is all true, but doesn’t remove the need for Israel to defend itself. I realise I have been weak in condemning such from Israel before, but the reason for conflict is not on Israel. If it wasn’t for Hamas there would be no war. Some of the actions since have not been good from the IDF to say the least. However, there is more of a disciplinary process there than Hamas. There will and can be no peace with Hamas, they don’t want it, and Israel aren’t going to just accept it, no matter who’s ruling. The protests against Netanyahu are great to see, and he should go asap, but most Israelis wouldn’t accept having to deal with Hamas trying to kill their civilians in acts of provocation.

75 years of ‘resistance’, which has often translated to acts of murder against Jews and it has never and won’t bring peace. Many want a one state solution under Palestine, which will mean a likely genocide of Jews given Hamas’s beliefs. The only way for peace is for Hamas to go, followed by Netanyahu. The latter can be done democratically and looks far more likely.

Our conduct against ISIS wasn’t that much different. For example, ISIS embedded themselves in hospitals and schools and we did the same. We evacuated patients and destroyed the hospitals with their weapons supplies. Not that different to Israel.

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I am comparing the civilian casualties to other wars, because the cause of the civilian casualties is the same as other wars.

“The idea that the Israelis have any intention to agreeing to a 2 state solution was quashed this week.”

The two state solution was damaged on the 7th October to a point beyond repair. I do not think Netanyahu wants it either, but it isn’t on the table with Hamas. With the existence of Hamas there never will be a second state.

“Stop trying to justify it. The intention all along was to drive the Palestinians out of Gaza.”

I am justifying why there is conflict, which was caused by Hamas. Just because you want or don’t care about Israel being bombarded, they won’t just accept it.

“This war will lead to the ultimate destruction of the state of Israel. The thing you don’t want.”

Meanwhile, Hamas are losing and the Arab states secretly don’t want Hamas to win.

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Intent is important when determining who’s worse. Every war has civilian casualties, including WWII, Korea, our actions against ISIS. More German civilians died than British. More civilians died from US and UK military action than from ISIS. Yet that doesn’t make us worse than Saddam, Adolf or ISIS. None of us were engaged in genocide of Kurds, Jews, Roma or Yezidis, along with creating global terror and oppression of others.

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Oh, and I agree that such chanting by those soldiers is abhorrent, the soldiers involved need to face discipline. The mindset is horrible, and needs to be stamped out, but is not unique among many in such situations. The IDF have said that it violates their values, which is not something you’d find among Hamas or Saddam’s army. Their actions went beyond disgusting words with regards to genocidal intent and massacring of civilians, and not through warfare.

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Just wait until you hear what they chant on the other side, including on our streets. Globalise the intifada? Well, that’s been heard with terror plots against synagogues and Jewish sites.

Worse than Saddam? That’s one way of knowing this is just ideological bias. He actually ordered the killings of civilians, not the horrific effects of war, which were just the same when US forces struck Iraq and Syria when defeating ISIS (which had an estimated worse civilian casualty ratio according to one US general involved with that). Netanyahu can and will likely be given the boot. Thank goodness. Saddam and Hamas couldn’t or can’t, because there was no notion of a democracy there.

The irony is that a regime change against Hamas is what should be happening, but suggesting that makes one suspect to the left, who aren’t taking sides, but suggesting such against Israel. Personally, I think both should go.

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I watched the Stockport-Aldershot game in the FA Cup last night on BBC. After the game, the male ex-pro asked the goalscorer, Olly Scott, what was going through his head as he struck the ball which would score the winning goal.

I sat there wishing that Olly said he was thinking about how to unifying the quantum physics with general relativity. If the quality of questions is that from male ex-pros, I struggle to take seriously claims about how playing the male game is needed to be a pundit.

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Awaywego wrote:

Is that the same Emma Hayes who said women’s football should be open to a closed league and franchised teams and that women and girls football is middle class, and said all women’s premier league grounds should have undersoil heating, please don’t forget where her teams play their home games lol. We must listen more to Emma, Gary lineker and john Barnes.

She may have some ideas which are daft, but that doesn’t mean her thoughts here won’t be.

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Barton’s argument that knowledge of the male Premier League game/top class football is a necessity, which women lack experience of playing in, is undermined by the likes of Michael Owen and Danny Murphy talking utter guff on a regular basis.

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https://twitter.com/Blyth_Spartans/status/1734541285552226452?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

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Rene Artois, Awaywego

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The BJM are an interesting one. I went to see them in Leeds a decade ago and had a great time. 3 hour gig for £15, and it all passed off without hitch. Unfortunately, Anton has a habit of imploding and letting his emotions get to him. The next day they played in Liverpool and my friend who went said he got into a fight with a fan, stalling the show for 10 minutes or so.

Now, I see this from a couple of weeks ago:

30 years and this stuff still happens. The guy is quite something. For anyone who hasn’t seen it, the documentary known as Dig is a good exploration of the antics of Anton and the BJM from back in the day.

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Sounds like WordPress was coded by Dave Hilton!

1 user thanked author for this post.

Deereyme66

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And then Hamas launches missiles and terrorist attacks some more, blames Israel for responding, and the cycle continues.

Meanwhile, the least that can be done is that at least some aid gets to those who need, instead of it being more use for Hamas. No matter what Israel should or shouldn’t do, Hamas shouldn’t be hording everything from citizens. Recent anger from Palestinians show what they think of it.

1 user thanked author for this post.

bartonscorpion

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It is incredibly tragic and I do not know the best course at all find it so disheartening, but the former is an interesting take given the doctors were involved with the hostage taking seemingly. Hamas and the UNRWA could always release some more food to at least help, Egypt could offer more assistance, but they don’t bother. The aid just ends up with Hamas to horde, seemingly.

I see some Gazans came out to throw stones and intimidate the hostages when they were released. I guess that should meet an ‘I support Palestine’ ironic comment too.

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I am still laughing at how Harness achieved what honest Dave could not, despite the latter’s excuses and assurances he was doing his best. We finally have an ownership we can place faith in and no more waffle about ransom strips and squatter’s rights shenanigans. An owner who fosters unity and doesn’t make baseless attacks and slander because some fans may have questions.

11 users thanked author for this post.

Rene Artois, Iron-awe, BigLeftToe, Peter Promise, CMC, Cliff Byrne's Right Peg, Deereyme66, SDH57, BarnardFoxtonBarker.., Plymiron, SST

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I don’t always agree with George, but recognise he has principles. I think a lot of what he says is true here, especially regarding how cynical and unworkable the Rwanda scheme is:

George Monbiot absolutely shredding this govt and their sadistic, pure distraction, Rwanda policy. pic.twitter.com/tKuqaNsCfb

— Mike Galsworthy (@mikegalsworthy) December 7, 2023

It’s some cheek for the Tories to declare that they are the party of fiscal responsibility, cancelling projects like HS2 to the north because of ‘pragmatism’, when they continuously waste money on this failure.

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I saw a sparrowhark grab a blackbird in front of my car two weeks ago. I did feel sorry for the blackbird, who was in a lot of distress, but that is nature. Ultimately predators prevent populations becoming too unsustainable and the damage done to nature is far less than various human activity.

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I have seen chaffinches in North Lincs this year.

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billpuntonsghost

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Are you a keen twitcher, Rene?

The Merlin app on your phone is good for training your eyes and ears. My favourite bird sighting this year has been juvenile male bearded reedlings. Last year it was a whooper swan and the year before was a snow bunting.

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I wonder if the person behind itonironiron had chosen a username similar to ironironiron to create confusion and fool people into thinking it was the same person (hoping the reader would see a similar username and assume they are the same without meticulous scanning). ironironiron disliked Hilton from early on, and itonironiron posed as a Hilton sceptic.

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Surprised it’s not under a new surname.

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Hasn’t it already reopened?

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I didn’t think there’d be anything contentious about aiding Rene with what he was thinking of, when it’s going nothing to do with politics or religion.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Rene Artois, cassidystash

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