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“It is, of course, possible to criticise not Israel antisemitically.” – Important correction

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Heath wrote:

“Antisemitism has risen by 1300% in London”.

And Palestinian deaths, disease and famine has increased by a greater amount in Gaza. A definite ongoing cause of your antisemitism concern.

And Islamist terror attacks and genocides (i.e. Yezidis) kill more than anti-Muslim bigotry in response. So we should stop caring about anti-Muslim bigotry and accept Muslims facing hate then?

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Deereyme66 wrote:

Okay, I’m not remotely suggesting that antisemitism is not on the rise and neither is Peston or Steinberg, so I don’t get why you are so dismissive of legitimate criticism of Israel’s appaling ongoing actions. As Steinberg says:

‘If Israel’s cause is just, let it speak eloquently in its own defense. It is very telling that some of Israel’s own supporters instead go to extraordinary lengths to utterly silence the other side. Smearing one’s opponents is rarely a tactic employed by those confident that justice is on their side. If Israel’s case requires branding its critics antisemites, it is already conceding defeat.’

My posts here have nothing to do with ‘smearing criticism of Israel’. It’s about opposing hatred of Jews which is wrapped up in many who call themselves Palestinian activists. It’s not all, but it needs calling out because it’s been part of a climate which has driven up hatred of Jews. The problem I have with Peston and Steinberg is that they don’t acknowledge this and focus on half the picture. Steinberg makes out that the real problem comes from the far-right. I do not deny that there isn’t a problem there, I have spoken of Musk’s buddying up to antisemites and George Soros, which are eerily reminiscent of Rothschild conspiracies, from the right before. However, recent events have shown that it is existent in not an insignificant number among many on the left, and I didn’t just single out academics, but others too. Hence we have credible accusations of UNRWA members allowing some horrendous things to be taught in their refugee schools, keeping Israeli hostages, journalists casting doubt on Oct 7th atrocities (e.g. Owen Jones), TikTok rubbish, activists coming out in New York to support Houthis (their slogan includes “a curse upon the Jews”) and so many tweeting hate at Jews for anything that falls short of the ‘right opinion’.

It is, of course, possible to criticise Israel antisemitically. I have not thought anything you have said is such, for example. My own thoughts are that Netanyahu is a fascist prat (would use a stronger term that rhymes, but would fall foul of swearing rules) who has no to little regard for human life. I think Hamas caused this conflict and put blame on them for that, but I naively hoped that there wouldn’t be the response we’ve seen from Netanyahu’s Israel. I was wrong to be so careless in that and in some of the things I previously argued. I still say it’s not genocide, it’s a war which is not taking appropriate care for collateral damage. Gazans were told to move south, but have to continuously move, which doesn’t seem thought out. Progressive activist, Brianna Wu, said Israel is making the same mistakes as the US post-9/11 and I can sympathise strongly. Even though Hamas embed themselves within society, such callous bombing of refugee camps, with weapons that don’t seem to be precision strikes, is bad. There is no justification for the starvation of Gazans, I suggested that such aid should come in the past, but it hasn’t happened. There are multiple parties at fault here, Hamas do steal some of it, but I don’t think enough has been let in anyway. Surely air drops can work. All of this is disgusting from the regime, but many don’t criticise along these lines and seem to treat Israel with a disdain they don’t share with other similar or worse regimes. And some of the criticism goes into antisemitic tropes. I am not referring to people who criticise Israel, but too many treat any antisemitic comment as if it’s just criticism of Israel. Portraits of Netanyahu drinking blood are not reasoned criticism, but Jew hate, in the same way a racist portrayal of Idi Amin would be. Both Amin and Netanyahu are not good people, but racist portrayals are still condemnable.

It also goes the other way, and some comments have been anti-Muslim and anti-Palestinian. I have read a lot of this guy’s output recently and agree with much of it:

https://twitter.com/afalkhatib/status/1740477230374068523

Nothing antisemitic at all in his criticism of Israel, and I am not referring to such when critiquing Peston, so I don’t think I am conflating anything.

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The deans of Harvard, Princeton and Yale made the last comment about genocide towards Jews. UCL academics signed a motion supporting ‘a global intifada’, several student societies signed support of 7th Oct ‘resistance’, including Harvard, Cambridge and Oxford, I believe. Nothing was done about it. Some of those taking down photos of Israeli hostages turned out to be PhD students or sometimes lecturers. I am not saying it’s all, but there are too high a number that would see criticism if it was racial discrimination against another group. These are just some of the examples from the top of my head. All of it is contributing to a climate of antisemitism.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Just Iron

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I wasn’t referring to Steinberg.

It is relevant when Peston has posted a comment talking about worrying about antisemitism being conflated with criticism of Israel. Such comments are made by many who minimise antisemitic examples that I have posted. Peston made no attempt to specify this and shared a piece which minimises the problem from the left. Antisemitism has risen by 1300% in London and I doubt that this is because of conflation between ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’ and antisemitism. The examples become pertinent to demonstrate that I am not speaking about legitimate criticism of Israel in actuality. Yet you call that conflaiton, and I think it’s just because you disagree with me, personally.

Like I have said, it’s an odd priority for anyone who cares about racial discrimination to focus on anything but racial discrimination. The real problem is the ‘conflation’ apparently. Sounds like right wingers complaining about such with racism towards black people, tbh.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

‘Meanwhile, NGO members, university academics and activists yap about Zionist cabals controlling the media, denial of atrocities on Oct 7th, how Hitler had a point and how Jews are an evil oppressor class’

And with one clean sweep of the brush…legitimate criticism is demonised. Hello Donald.

I didn’t realise these examples were ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’. I wasn’t using this to criticise people like IronAge for saying Israeli TV has bias. I am using it to criticise the specific antisemites, but it is impossible to call that out because you would just say that this is demonising ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’.

Meanwhile, university academics on twitter have said such comments about Jews, made calls in support of the ‘resiistance’ on Oct 7th and deans have said that calls for genocide of Jews are not necessarily antisemitic. Yet ‘the problem’ are those calling out this blatant antisemitism, not the antisemitism itself. Talk about gaslighting. There are plenty of ways to criticise Israel and I am not calling that out as antisemitic. Iron-Awe said that Netanyahu is a right wing maniac who is callous with human life. I agree, and that isn’t antisemitic, nor is this what I am talking about. However, behind those making more sensible criticism are the antisemites and it is not ‘gaslighting’ to criticise them, especially when it is highly relevant to the point being discussed.

It’s relevant to talk about what other Jews think, given you were claiming Peston’s Jewishness was being dismissed when I have seen several Jews disagree with him. If I was to agree with him, I would be dismissing them ‘as Jews’. The point is that this was an illogical argument. I am just disagreeing, it’s haerdly ‘Bucks mark 2’ to do so and I am not the one gaslighting. You are complaining about making broad brush comments, but I am not, yet you are doing so with me trying to make out I am criticising anyone critical of Israel. I am not.

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I realise I mixed up there, but his point is also that criticism of Israel is being mixed up, which seems a strange priority given the huge rise in antisemitism cases and how many argue cases (like the example) are ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’. Hence the ‘dragging’ up of examples, because if I didn’t you might say that I am conflating legitimate criticism of Israel with antisemitism. So, yes, it does in my opinion. I wasn’t ‘dragging them up’ as part of the argument in my initial admittedly flawed response.

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If Peston is speaking as a Jew makes his opinions beyond criticism, then the Jewish nature of those who disagree should too. Problem is that this creates a contradiction, which shows it’s flawed logic. We can listen to the majority voice and think about how such actions affect Jews, and there have been many prominent examples of things like this:

DOWNING ST CENTRAL LONDON YESTERDAY

"The occupiers are harvesting Palestinian organs" pic.twitter.com/QStJTC0QRP

— Harry's Place (@hurryupharry) December 31, 2023

This is blatant antisemitism as unfounded claims that Jews harvest organs is a variation of the blood libel used to slam Jews. It’s not ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’, it’s just demonising Jews. Criticising it is not trying to silence critique of Israel, yet when I speak of this, many of the left make this kind of rubbish which has increased is somehow silencing critique of Israel. This is what many are finding objectionable about Peston’s tweet, and his Jewish status doesn’t make it any less disagreeable. Other Jews would say differently. He’s of course welcome to his opinion, but I am welcome to disagree.

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I didn’t realise he was the spokesperson for all Jews. Most other Jews think differently, but they can be dismissed because Peston is Jewish?

Other Jews are fed up of living in fear, but Peston’s not, so I guess it’s ok and ‘overblown’ then.

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Seems like a hint

https://twitter.com/GLYNSPARKS/status/1741511789471257057

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Iron-awe wrote:

Siderite wrote:

Heath wrote:

Why do we never get an answer?

I wonder if it could be part of a delicate situation following Dave’s shenanigans and the club don’t want to stir anything up publicly.

It’s a Moody Blues love in Siderite, give us a New Year number from way back then.

I hadn’t read the other replies above. Understood.

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Heath wrote:

Why do we never get an answer?

I wonder if it could be part of a delicate situation following Dave’s shenanigans and the club don’t want to stir anything up publicly.

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That’s similar to what Tommy Robinson says about bigotry towards Muslims after Islamic inspired terrorist attacks. The actions of Israel or Islamists do not diminish bigotry towards Jews or Muslims.

I am also appalled by the rise of anti-Muslim actions recently. BBC covered that too. It’s appalling and talking about what the IDF or Hamas are doing does not make it less of a concern.

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Eh? I said nothing about Israeli TV news being unbiased in any way. My point is that it’s not unique to Israel and not to do with the point related to the thread regarding antisemitism about Jewish control of the media. Kanye West and other dim wits rambling on about Jewish control of the media has sod all to do with rational criticism of Israeli TV bias. It’s not ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’.

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Same could be said for many.

Same could be said for Palestinian media, but this is really irrelevant to conspiracies about Jewish control of the media that have existed for decades and continue to propagate among many on the left, far-right and some Islamic sources. It’s nothing more than antisemitism and is not ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’. And, no, they’re not saying some Israeli network has bias, it’s outright conspiracies about Israelis/Zionists/Jews controlling the media.

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Who’s this lot?

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No, but it would be anti-British to say that the British government is a nefarious puppeteering force who controls the media and is made out to be more evil than it is.

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Many of those claiming this end up silencing the rise of antisemitism. As the BBC reported the other day, antisemitism claims have risen sharply. I would have more time for calls of ‘incipient McCarthyism’ if large parts of the left didn’t continuously turn a blind eye to blatant antisemitism at best, and participate it at worst. Every time Jews and others try and point this out they’re told that they are ‘weaponising antisemitism’. The people who claim that ‘of course they’re against antisemitism’ never seem to find the energy to call it out, despite supposedly being against it.

It seems rather perverse to focus on this when Jews are afraid to wear Jewish attire in public. Large parts of the left seems more exorcised about claims of antisemitism than antisemitism towards Jews. It’s like the mirror of the right wing who moan about claims of racism cheapening ‘real racism’ when it comes to racism against black people. Neither seem to listen to the majority, and the majority of Jews think there’s an issue with antisemitism, but it gets brushed under the carpet. Just as with the right and finding a minority voice among black people, the left can find a comparative minority voice among Jews to try and distort claims of antisemitism. Meanwhile, NGO members, university academics and activists yap about Zionist cabals controlling the media, denial of atrocities on Oct 7th, how Hitler had a point and how Jews are an evil oppressor class and this gets ignored and/or deemed to be ‘legitimate criticism of Israel’. You only have to go on any piece from someone criticising antisemitism to see people just mock Jews, pour scorn and think they’re doing anything but proving the point their critics make (see Stephen Fry’s Christmas message and the reaction to that from the ‘anti-racists’).

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An ugly win, but maybe the only way to win on that pitch. Jimmy shows he has a plan B today.

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Whitehall’s a hot headed idiot.

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He’s keeping the cell warm in the hope of having his favourite cellmate share with him.

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The etiquette for non-segregated non-league games is that away fans go to one side of the ground and home fans the other, and change end at half-time. I hope there are no issues with this tomorrow.

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Whitehall scores a tap in and he’s best thing since sliced bread. Thought he had a poor game overall, personally. I have not always thought that.

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I had you down as a massive Kardashian buff! :-)

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12/20

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Haha. They’ve deleted the post.

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“By north I meant Tottenham – it’s north of the Thames.”

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Some baffling decisions by old, supposedly wise heads, this year over Hilton and Herbert. I bet Simon regrets his naive decisions.

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I think the site has had server issues, so maybe it’s part of making the site more stable.

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Just as I don’t recognise celebrating mass murder in any of mine. The deaths are all tragic, the IDF should do more, but it’s all been caused by Hamas. We wouldn’t be having this discussion if Hamas hadn’t tried to start something stupid on Oct 7th.

I am happy to be wrong. I am basing it on things like a lack of argument to what should have been done instead of conflict and blaming Israel for the ceasefire break, when that was already done by Hamas. It does come across to me as a bias. You have said the same to me, but fair’s fair in that I can give an opinion and such earlier comments will create the risk of a more emotional reply.

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