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There are, but Israel has an easier way of removing the worst from power and Hamas are unlikely to change with any kind of peace agreement. More liberal Israelis won’t stand for their behaviour either and Hamas’s actions will potentially radicalise Israelis too. It’s a cycle, rather than it being one way. There needs to be something to break the dogmatic responses, from both sides, including in Palestine towards supporting a group like Hamas.

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Those are very good, 64.

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Yeah, I agree on the solution. There have been times where I wished I’d held back and the time to edit a post has passed, so I am stuck with something I would have worded differently later on. I also thinking of not always assuming the worst angle from those you’re debating with, and I am thinking of myself here too. Not just with this, but with how I have debated with Bucks or JI previously on divisive issues.

On twitter, it can be hugely frustrating to see tribalism dominate, but behind that, there can be some joy in finding people who hold views which make you think and articles from more obscure places that you wouldn’t have come across otherwise (I wouldn’t have come across Ahmed Alkhatib’s work otherwise). I found Oz Katerji (https://twitter.com/OzKaterji) through this and he is one of my most respected journalists reporting on issues abroad. It can cause you to feel less isolated when you meet people of similar mindsets and I did meet up with a couple of tweeters last year in London, who are both of a similar political persuasion. This can be comforting, but it’s important not to fall down into it too much so the only people you are amicable with are those of the same mindset, because that breeds echo chambers, tribalism and a feeling that anyone who thinks differently must be working against you. It can be done though if you’re careful. The site can also provide a chance to laugh at the silliness too whenever something ridiculous trends. Be it ‘bean dad’ (https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/events/bean-dad) or when Jolyon Maugham boasted about going out in his wife’s kimono to bash a fox to death with a baseball bat (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/dec/26/prominent-lawyer-jolyon-maugham-tweets-about-clubbing-a-fox-to-death)

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Deereyme66 wrote:

At least our conversation continues on this subject, despite the disagreements, loggerheads, misunderstandings etc. I think that’s a good thing. Worse to quit the claims and responses and shut up shop. Part of the wider problem the world over.

Yeah, I appreciate the lack of insults and abuse. It’s not like twitter where any disagreement usually ends with insults, attempts to abuse and attempts at gotcha. Depending on what I am talking about, I am either a ‘fascist’ or a ‘communist’. Since October 7th I have managed to find myself blocked by the left wing Owen Jones and the right wing Leo Kearse when discussing issues arising from it. The polarisation on there is frightening on this, and many issues, and that is what worries me. The division into different echo chambers where neither can understand each other and actively hate the other side. Go on any post sympathetic to Jews in anyway and the comments are a bin fire of people hating on Jews, mocking hostages for their looks and asking why Hamas would rape an ugly Jewish ****. The same is on some on the other side with comments of ‘no innocent Palestinians’, ‘goat shagging Palestinians’ and Julia Hartley-Brewer today saying this:

Appalling racism by Julia Hartley-Brewer @JuliaHB1 with Palestinian MP Dr Mustafa Barghouti: ‘Maybe you are not used to women talking’

Complete disrespect for a beautiful & decent man who has devoted his life to community & public health

Apology requiredpic.twitter.com/8Oft84king

— Stewart Mills (@StewartMills) January 5, 2024

I know I can be guilty of acting on emotion and I have been trying to amend that. I just see it as a difference in opinion really; no point letting that divide people too much (within reason) or you’ll have no friends. I won’t share 100% agreement with many, so if I let such cause division, I would be lonely. Also, people make mistakes, so it’s good to be forgiving and not hanging on to any old grievances.

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Deereyme66

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Deereyme66 wrote:

Siderite wrote:

You do realise that the relocation rubbish is just talk at the moment, just as much as this is? It’s not set in stone. I thought it was my outlook that was supposed to be bleak!

Of course people realise that, and you know that I’m sure, so why make such a big point? You do realise that actions are often taken following talk I assume? Blimey.

I am not meaning to make it a big point, I was responding to Heath who was speaking as if it was a foregone conclusion and the defence minister had to change course. I am aware that such talk can lead to action, but the words of Ben-Gvir are no more of a certainty than that of Gallant’s and Netanyahu’s words and discussions with other nations haven’t yet brought a definitive solution, so I found Heath’s comment to be fatalistic when there are still ways it could play out differently. There are many things that can happen, including the removing of Netanyahu or pressure from outside if Biden and others make an effort. Still room for hope imo.

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Duane Holmes?

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None of it means we shouldn’t be worried, the talk is worrying. I am trying to say that hope is not yet dead.

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Deereyme66

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You do realise that the relocation rubbish is just talk at the moment, just as much as this is? It’s not set in stone. I thought it was my outlook that was supposed to be bleak!

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I am just saying the worst scenario isn’t a given.

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Deereyme66

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The Israeli defence minister spoke ot against such comments yesterday and said the plan is to have Palestine under control by Palestinians.

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Are we all just Jonnie Or-nots in Gurnelista’s world?

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Some have been talking of it as a Lincolnshire derby. I have to admit that I cannot see Boston as a rival or a derby. It’s almost East Anglia.

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Netanyahu doesn’t, Likud doesn’t, and I have said that before. That doesn’t change that there is an Islamist death cult in Gaza, which liberal Israelis could not work with. The people of Kibbutz were generally liberal and pro-cooperation with Palestinians. Hamas deemed them scum worthy of death.

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I don’t see how a fundamentalist cult who is convinced of its own cause can change and it certainly won’t change without pressure. It’s just not realistic, and I don’t see why Israel should be expected to bother after Oct 7th. It would be like trying to get Jews, Poles, Roma, gays to work with Nazis in the 30s. The fundamentalist mindset doesn’t work like the more liberally minded, where they consider others, so their main way forward will be how to benefit them so they can continue with their goal of destroying Israel.

I am not so defeatist. I am working my way into thinking that there can be a two state solution. I just don’t think it can be with Hamas; it seems unpalatable to me to expect Hamas to be worked with given their nature, motives and actions. It will have to be with Abbas or others who can bring something less extreme to the table.

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Also, I have read some plausible thoughts from people saying there could be a solution, but it’s likely to lie with someone like Abbas as a springboard for improvement. I think that has more room than anything with Hamas, and is what should be explored. Expecting anything with Hamas now is probably nothing but a busted flush. They are unlikely to change and I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect compromise with such people.

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I have not claimed that Palestinians cannot be victims of Israeli aggression or that there aren’t issues from a very right wing Israeli government in areas like the West Bank. However, other emancipation movements (like South African black people) found outlets which weren’t homicidal maniacs who would only accept the destruction of Israel as their only palatable solution. Only a fool would then think that Jews would be safe in the ruins of Israel in this scenario. Israel should be doing a heck of a lot more to produce more amicable relations, but if a Nazi-like Islamist movement is going to attack them they have a right to defend themselves. I think the defence should be a lot more measured than it has been, but thinking Israel should make peace and live side by side with a bunch of Nazi-like religious fanatics is just not tenable or palatable. Unless there’s a huge mood change within Hamas, it won’t happen, and there’s little pressure for them to do so while apportion of blame is concentrated practically solely on Israel.

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Hamas are not interested in making concessions. Their modus operandi is the destroy Israel and kill Jews. People can cover their heads over their ears, but any familiarity with their ideology tells you that. It’s like trying to convince Nazis that Jews, Roma etc aren’t subhuman. Unless there’s a change among Palestinian leadership and some in the culture it won’t change, no matter what Israel do. This isn’t Israel’s fault. The only way to oppose immoral actions from Israel isn’t this.

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I don’t trust Netanyahu or his cronies on that.

How can there be a solution with Hamas? They don’t want peace with Israel. Any peace will only be temporary and they are an outlet for Iranian meddling. There won’t be peace with them, no matter what Israel do. Israel could elect the most pacifist government ever and Hamas will still hate them, attack them and claim to be the victims of Israeli aggression.

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There are more moderate parties. It wouldn’t likely signal an end to war, but the onus on that isn’t all on Israel. It could lead to a more sensible approach and no talk of forced migrations

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Netanyahu’s hugely unpopular in Israel right now. I don’t think he’d stand a chance.

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This is disgraceful.Elections in Israel can’t come soon enough.

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And the Palestinians have agency, so Israel are not at fault for others going down extremist routes in response. US black people managed to find a more peaceful and tolerable way to bring about greater equality without turning to extremism. Palestinians can too.

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Which is one reason why I mentioned Netanyahu and co. However, I think it’s deluded to expect there to be peace talks with a group who repeatedly make their intentions clear in how they want to deal with Israel and won’t change. No nation is going to agree to terms with a group who say they want to keep killing them after what’s gone on, whether they have monsters like Netanyahu or someone more sensible and less loony.

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The problem is also that it could be also said that is it any surprise Israel has gone to Likud with Hamas. I don’t know what a peace deal with Hamas could be. Their mission statement is to kill Jews and have Israel destroyed, and no amount of compromises could be made with that. That’s not a reasonable demand for any other nation to cope with. A peace deal for them is more time to build up weapon stock and plot Israel’s destruction. There won’t be any long term peace until Hamas are removed from power somehow (yes, Netanyahu and co too, but at least they can be voted out).

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I struggle to make fun of Grimsby while we’re NLN. It would be amusing if we end up playing them in the league next year after they thought it might be some time though.

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Why do you think I said I was naive? That’s part of the reason for it.

I don’t think it would mean much difference for some if the IDF was less callous, but that doesn’t mean the callousness shouldn’t be a concern.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

Siderite wrote:

“I didn’t just single out academics”

You didn’t single them out but you included them in a broad brush sweep. Might be better if you were more specific about who has said such a statement because from what I read, it looks like they’re part of a pack you’re demonising. Sorry, but That’s how it reads

I included them in a broad brush sweep because there have been academics who have disgraced themselves with antisemitic comments and tolerance of such. Hence why Jewish students are reporting fear of going to lectures, because there is little sympathy to them and many academics have not supported them.

When academics have previously supported people like David Miller and are now doing things like saying calls for genocide are only antisemitic in context, it’s not the fault of Jews or others for calling it out.

I have said many times that it does not represent all. But neither does problems with rapey policemen in the Met. It doesn’t mean there isn’t an issue with that in the Met, and the same applies here. Both academia and the police have been negligent with such issues.

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Hamas didn’t start the issues then, but this round of conflict was initiated then. There would still be an uneasy ceasefire, in all likelihood, without it.

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“I didn’t just single out academics”

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