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1 user thanked author for this post.
I agree that demonetising him over this is bad. Like I said, we’re allowed our opinions, but we must be open to the case it’s explainable. This doesn’t fit that in my opinion.
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I was only using Saville to say that I don’t think public opinion before court decision is necessarily wrong. Yeah, there may well be a culture of silence from the ‘establishment’ at his former employers. Danni Minogue was accusing him 17 years ago.
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The ‘legacy media’ hasn’t always covered itself in glory, but the so called ‘alternative media’ is far worse and tends to skew heavily towards confirmation bias for whatever side it represents. It doesn’t matter if it’s right leaning stuff like Guido or Fox News or left wing stuff like Another Angry Voice or Novara Media.
It’s a common misconception that conspiracy theories and tendency to such stuff is a domain for the stupid. Many people go into them through inquisitive mindsets, and finding the reporting appealing. This might be because of the nature of the stories confirming the bias of the reader or because they often sound very well researched, but there are often flaws. No outlet is without bias, including ‘legacy media’, but there are far more stringent checks with more established sources, but I am aware times they have failed increase cynicism, scepticism, whatever you want to call it. However, that doesn’t mean the alternative is better, and most of the stuff I see from these alternative outlets is garbage which only appeals to those who think that way.
I try to reserve my ire at the public figures who put their heads above the parapet with what I dislike. I do find their motives cynical and agenda driven, when they talk about MSM agendas and what not. While they peddle stuff which is far less evidence driven. I do worry about the polarisation and ‘radicalisation’ of society, where people seemingly get maniacal about their side’s concerns with no thoughts for others, and it affects everyone. MAGA, Brexiters, FBPE remainers, Corbynites, Scottish nats etc can all come across this way. Everyone against them is an out of touch metropolitan elitist, any argument against their view is disingenuous. Whatever. Do I think every person who supports ideas common to these groups are like this? No, but it reflects a large proportion.
The most important thing for me is that worries over this may lead to me putting myself on a pedestal above others, where I am immune to such thinking. I try to remind myself that I am not and can be prone to such, so try not to judge myself as being more rational and enlightened than others, yourself included.
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Thanks for bringing that to attention. It was a good read and I do agree with most of it.
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I am not taking the principle of legal processes lightly. I have said that he should not face jail based on this. I do think that we are allowed to form our own opinions, despite it not going to court. This was why I mentioned Saville and co. Not to say Brand is guilty because they were, but that the idea that we should only form an opinion based on court results to be flawed.
It’s all a matter of belief, and it’s perfectly fine to form an opinion based on that belief. The accusations are believable and detailed, with corroborative evidence. Of course I am open to the possibility of an explanation from Brand which signals innocence. However, it doesn’t look good to me, including stuff which came from the horse’s mouth. I found your statement about considering the possibility that the victims may have political motivation to be leading. If they did, why are they putting themselves through public judgement, which often weighs heavily against victims from many? It’s actually why rape is under-reported. It’s more common for victims to not accuse to avoid such stress.
Others may say I am motivated by my dislike of Brand’s politics, which actually goes back years to when he was playing the left wing kook. However, my favourite journalist was found to be a sexual harasser not so long ago, and I accepted that and lost faith in that man. I conversed with one of those he bothered too, and she was believable and convinced me. He has never been found guilty, but it stretched credulity for him not to be a wrong ‘un. It would have been unfair on those he harassed and groped to have been able to keep his job (he lost it), even if it hasn’t gone to court.
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The Saville point is to say that judicial process isn’t the barometer of public opinion, and in a world of free speech it won’t be. Also, if we are holding the court as the ultimate test for what we can think, then we cannot think people like Saville, Slobodan Milosevic, Fred West (he did confess, so to a lesser extent) and others should be treated as guilty.
I think the assumption that women who do come forward must be ideologically motivated is precisely why many women don’t come forward. Never mind that these women have shown documents from the time, including showing their visits to rape centres after the event a decade ago. My, that would be a long con for some ideological put down alone. The charge of political motivation against these women, without due reason (when we have more evidence and questions against Brand) is quite abhorrent, I have to say. You say Brand was promiscuous, but another question is that out of so many women, is it unlikely that some weren’t manipulated like those alleged? Given Brand’s nature, I don’t think that’s absurd.
Time after time, we hear how we must bear in mind that the perpetrator might not be guilty with these accusations, but we rarely hear such call for calm against the women. No, they get slammed as ideologically driven or trying to put a good man down every time, with no evidence. 99% of rape claims don’t lead to a guilty verdict (most dropping before court). Does this mean 99% of charges are false? That would be silly, but this is where this argument leads to. Many victims are manipulated, go back on statements and the standard in court is (rightfully) high, so it may be hard to prove on a legal basis. This doesn’t mean innocence; not guilty does not necessarily mean innocent, it means that there isn’t enough evidence to prove guilt without doubt. As such, I don’t think we should be slaves to that when considering the judgement of someone.
The Times and Dispatches did a rounded investigative piece, with accusations going back years. The political element is linked to why Channel 4 came out now, not the accusations from women. Still, political decisions do not discount the piece. The accusations are grim, his own admissions are grim; I am more bothered about the welfare of likely victims now having to face judgement over Brand. I would say that accusations should go to the police, but there’s been many words said by victims as to why this is hard for many, including the disbelief from others and others taking a dim view of them. Unfortunately, with sexual crimes, society seems to find it easier to judge victims as liars over the accused being a deviant.
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Looking at that, that’s the population of the borough, not just the town. It included all the surrounding villages into the population.
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Yes, the reference to his daughter was posted by ‘Bury Born Again’ on The Fishy, reposted here by someone else (not Interested Bystander). I have no idea if Bury Born Again is Interested Bystander, but there’s no evidence they are the same. The posting style was different.
Unless I missed a separate post by IB.
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I don’t think he’s Peter Swann. Peter Swann posted on here and was full of his egotistical drivel. Whoever IB is, he seems to have an agenda with Hilton, and I don’t fully buy his reasoning as a fan of another club concerned about our situation alone.
That said, he has brought information about Hilton to light, which has been reliable and he does make a point here regarding how Hilton seems to fall out with everyone and that is probably a bad reflection on him.
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Poundshop Peter Kay has been to sunny Scunny again.
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It’s only inevitable that the site will be negative after years of crumbling results and finances under Swann bringing us to the depths of the second tier of non-league, followed by the drama and uncertain nature of Hilton.
For what it’s worth, I can see why this is a drain, but on the positive side, look at the nature of the discussion here. There is a lot more thoughtful discussion than that Facebook group, it’s less censorious, and there’s more respect for other opinions in general.
I realise this last week has been high octane, but I will do my part in apologising for letting my anger at Hilton show maybe a bit too much. I realise there’s no point now and just hope the whole situation gets sorted, but I still fear the worst.
I would just like to say that there is a core of good posters, who make interesting points from all angles, here. Cassidy’s Tash, JustIron, DeereyMe, Iron-Awe, Ironawe, Les, Cliff Byrne’s Right Peg, MK Iron, IronIronIron, TheJuryeffsOut, 64, MistertonMick, NI, ApatheticApologists, Interested Bystander*, ironfromafar etc. No particular order, and I have probably missed some (so don’t feel offended if missed out), but all have contributed with interesting points over the years and still do. And, of course, SST for keeping this site going.
*I know some may disagree, but I value openness and honesty, so his work has been valuable, even if repetitive for some.
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Hilton lied to us more than Sharp and Simon did (bought the ground, that the rumours were false). I think Sharp, in particular, should get plaudits for stepping in and funding the wages when needed. Shame it didn’t work out for that group, as I feel we would have been more united under them.
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Sidey… I’m not challenging the points you make and the reservations you have… nor you absolute right to state them. A friendly observation .. you are starting to come across as a bit ‘over committed’ and ‘reactive.’ I think Deerey, as one example of someone who has similar views, has taken a more philosophical course. I think any regulars on here know your views on DH, the state of the club etc etc I’m more on the middle ground ..if there is any … than you are but generally find your postings careful and well expressed. It just feels like you need to take a bit of a breather to me.
It has been an emotional week and I think the outpouring is a response to it and being told, by some quarters that any suspicions on Hilton was because we wanted the club dead, including by him who said they were lies spread by trouble makers. Except it wasn’t and we still get the victim complex from him. There is probably a frustration that after months of derision, from some for having concerns that there still is when concerns are becoming more solidified.
You are probably right in that taking a breather from debating every point is wise, and I am self-aware that I am opinionated.;-) However, if he just ups and leaves without a care in the world I’d say that’s his responsibility for not caring about others.
I will continue in understanding that everyone is a fan of this club, and I am not a fan of ironeye gloating or the guy who said Stuart Maw is a blind t**t, and just wish we could accept that we want there to be a club, instead of that and the ‘you want the club dead’ rubbish.
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He says he wanted to leave a legacy, I have no ideaif that is the case given his dishonesty.
If the boss of company quits, putting other’s jobs and financial stability at risk,because of depression I’d say that the boss is behaving poorly. With football clubs you have the added effect of supporters losing their club. Poor mental health isn’t a get our card to prevent him from thinking or caring about others.
2 users thanked author for this post.
Where have I said he owes me, personally? If he gives a damn about the club, he should try. He’s an adult and is in a position of responsibility. With that comes responsibilities, including ensuring the club’s survival. Swann failed, maybe he can succeed with finding a buyer if he tries.
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We don’t know if there’s anyone interested yet. It’s been put to sale for less than a week and the saviour is already giving up, allegedly, and we don’t know how hard he’s trying. I won’t be impressed if he just quits without trying.
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Isn’t this back to where we were when everyone wanted Swann out?
One big difference.
There was a winding-up order in place and Swann was willing to stand by and watch us go bust. The only chance of not-dying was to lose Swann.
This time, there are still financial problems left over from Swann but by and large they’re improving.
If Hilton resigns today, the club needs a miracle to survive.
Now Hilton is prepared to let us go bust. Nothing changes.
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Like it or not if this carries on l dont think we are going to have a club shame really but some people will be happy
If what carries on ?
Who will be happy ?Ironeye is the only person I have seen to sound happy. The rest are frustrated or angry in one way or another.
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