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If only they didn’t say evacuate so more could die. Or better yet, leave Hamas apparatus intact so Hamas can continue attacking Israel and you can pretend there’s nothing wrong.

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*sighs*

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Siderite wrote:

Fifty Pence wrote:

Bucksiron wrote:

too many people are simply revealing their political bias when it comes to taking sides.

Including yourself. For those of us who are geographically, culturally and religiously detached from the middle east, a lot of this “siding” is political – Likud is very right wing, supported by America’s right wing. – so it’s not surprising that left leaning people are against the Israeli government (not against Israel, Israelis or Jews). People, on both sides of the political divide , are against Hamas (not Palestinians or Muslims) – so the inevitable arguments tend to be based on thoughts on Israel (and their actions) because the thoughts on Hamas aren’t so different.

On here it’s more accurate, but go on social media and Hamas apologia is rife.

On this, I notice that Peter Tatchell was refused entry to the march on the weekend with banners against Hamas. I think that’s quite telling. As was the attempted stabbing of the Iranian bloke with an anti-Hamas placard. There is a clear problem among many with regards to some poisonous views.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

Yeah, wouldn’t want to miss out on the opportunity to falsely accuse some left leaning types on here of antisemitism would he? Not calculated or owt of course.

Yes, Bucks is very bullish, I know that. He makes good points in there, in my opinion, but can see how some accusations aggravate others. I have found that from previous debates.

I am just curious as to what his opinions on Hilton are given his previous support for Swann and his absence.

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Fifty Pence wrote:

Bucksiron wrote:

too many people are simply revealing their political bias when it comes to taking sides.

Including yourself. For those of us who are geographically, culturally and religiously detached from the middle east, a lot of this “siding” is political – Likud is very right wing, supported by America’s right wing. – so it’s not surprising that left leaning people are against the Israeli government (not against Israel, Israelis or Jews). People, on both sides of the political divide , are against Hamas (not Palestinians or Muslims) – so the inevitable arguments tend to be based on thoughts on Israel (and their actions) because the thoughts on Hamas aren’t so different.

On here it’s more accurate, but go on social media and Hamas apologia is rife.

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It’s like old times with Bucks back. Bucks, completely off topic, what did you make of the whole David Hilton saga? Just out of interest. Were you suspicious from early on or did you place hope and trust in him? No judgement either way.

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On radio 4 last week there was a discussion about petrichor and the links to improved mental health. Apparently we should be taking more walks in the wet or just after rainfall to improve our mood. Should be some good practice this week.

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Check the sub-forum it is under before complaining.

If you’re going on the non-football section, why are you moaning about non-football being talked about?

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Fifty Pence wrote:

After the detritus that followed his tenure, I’m almost happy with the appointment. A move to a slightly more moderate Tory party has got to be a good thing – hopefully not enough for them to stay in power

Be as it may, there are surely moderates who are currently elected. Also, his lobbying interests are worrisome.

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Both Raq and the Arsenal fans are imbeciles.

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No loss. I wonder how they will top Patel and Braverman. Sauron, perhaps?

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Given the idiots were talking about going to the march two weeks before Suella’s ill judged comments, I doubt that.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

I think it was feck all to do with policing and the simple fact they’ll find any excuse for a scrap. I think you’re overestimating their motivations personally.

Perhaps I over-emphasised it as a sole reason. However, there was an impression across social media that the police were too willing to excuse the inexcusable. Such as when, after chants of ‘jihad’ were heard, they said it just means spiritual struggle. I think anyone who thinks that in that context it meant anything but a call to rise up with violent intent is naive. It was this sort of thing that riled the football lads alliance types.

As for criticising the police from my armchair, I will do so just as I did with the Sarah Everard vigil and all of us do with politicians and others, from the comfort of home.

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Not really, given the poor nature of the policing fed into the propaganda of the hooligans. Hence the shame on you chants directed at the police. They saw it as such and took it upon themselves to ‘defend Britain’. They feared policing wouldn’t be sufficient on remembrance day. People speak of them being whipped up by Suella, but they were talking about counter proteststwo weeks ago. This would have happened anyway.

None of this is to justify, they shouldn’t have been there, shouldn’t have caused their predictable trouble. It was also predictable that it would happen, which was my point. Not that vigilante behaviour is right.

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The announcer is a gem

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I have also given my opinion on what should end the current conflict in another thread, but fat load of good does that do me. I still get accused of not saying it.

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Yet you remain silent on what I was actually talking about this thread and try and distract. You have accused me of hating Palestinians because I criticised the nature of the organisers and many (but not all) of the protesters. I can only see it for what it is, because this kind of excuse for any other hate at a protest, like the right wing boneheads at the counter-protest, would not be so easily ignored. Those who claim to not be apathetic towards anti-Semitism sure are full of excuses and straw men to distract from condemnation. There’s always an excuse.

Any injustices against Gaza is no excuse for anti-Semitic radicalisation. It does not excuse Hamas and does not excuse calls for the destruction of Israel. Anti-Semitism has existed in the area since before Israel, and it would do continue to do so if Israel didn’t react and behaved as many say it should (but would still have an issue anyway). The extremists have no interest in peace with Israel, they keep saying as such, so you make that accusation against me but have none yourself beyond Israel just accepting being victims of zealots wanting to kill them. Talk about bleak.

None of this means I think Palestinians are defined by extremists in their midst, but pretending it’s not a problem won’t solve anything, it will only allow it to continue. This won’t stop until Netanyahu and the Likudists are discredited and gone, and Islamism in Palestine too. As well as coming to terms with Israel’s existence and not continuing with the same failed violence which has yielded nothing for decades.

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I wasn’t aware that everyone on the march was Palestinian or stateless. The ones I have seen are white, British Pakistani, Bengali and many other ethnicities. I also wasn’t aware that if they were Palestinian, it means it’s ok for them to make anti-Semitic placards and chant hateful chants. I have made zero comment as to what nationality the trouble causers were. You made that bigoted and racist assumption yourself.

I have made no comments here about Palestinians as lesser or anything like that. Just that anti-Semitism is wrong and that the marches have propagated that.

You speak of blindless, but you are absolutely clueless to your own apathy, at best, towards hatred of Jews.

You speak so self-righteously about how depressing my posts are, because to be self-proclaimed anti-racist means you’re morally virtuous. However, you have precisely nothing to say about those leading the marches with their dodgy views. If you are saying that because the leaders of the march are Palestinian they’re beyond criticism, then I would say that’s pretty racist itself. Also, I was thinking of Ismael “we stand with Hamas” Patel who is not Palestinian. Then there’s Muhammad Kathem Sawalha, former Hamas chief. If this is why you said I hate Palestinians, then I would say you have just conflated Hamas with Palestinians. Hamas, whose original charter called for the genocide of Jews. Apparently ok if Israel has committed wrongs.

I have not made any comment on the rights or wrongs of the conflict regarding this protest. However, you seemingly don’t care what that means for British and other Jews being intimidated by anti-Semitism. It is truly disgusting that I don’t think that Jews shouldn’t be hounded at synagogues or in British cities. I should learn to be like you, the world’s most moral person, and turn a blind eye to people chanting for their destruction.

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I have said many are there in good conscience in more than one post before. I shouldn’t need to repeat it every time I post on this.

The marches are set up by people with obvious Hamas sympathies in many cases, many go on loudly chanting hateful slogans and carrying anti-Semitic placards. Do they represent all? No. However, the significant number who do are creating a toxic environment every weekend in our cities. Many Jews no longer feel safe to be in our cities, which is an indictment of it. No other march with racism would get this excuse of most being there for supporting hate, and anyone making that excuse would be condemned. Yet it’s fine for these marches apparently.

Latest video I have seen is idiots with Palestine flags outside a synagogue chanting. This is intimidation. I don’t think saying most will not have done this makes it any better that these marches are making no effort to address this. We wouldn’t be excusing others for similar behaviour.

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Oh, so warfare means it’s acceptable for racism is it?

Ok, so the next time an Islamist makes a terror attack I will remind myself that it’s immoral to call out anti-Muslim idiots attacking Muslims because of the terror attack

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The hooligans joining in were inevitable given the failure of the police to do their jobs. Not like that excuses their predictable yob behaviour.

Meanwhile, on the other side, the racism and hate continued with anti-Semitic placards, the same old chants about Israel not existing and Jews remembering the Khaybar, Muslims coming to destroy Israel and swastikas in star’s of David. The overt racism is beyond what I have seen for a long while. If this was Nick Griffin, people would not associate with it, but because there is a blind spot here, it gets excused or ignored. Something needs to be done. I would say the organisers need to distance themselves, but I suspect they’re content given their documented views of supporting Hamas in the past (their words and actions). Peace marches, my backside.

A plague on both the houses of the anti-Semites joining in with the Palestine marches and the yobs storming the cenotaph. I also suspect they’re more motivated by ‘defending Britain’ from those they see as against it than anything to do with Israel.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Just Iron

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That should say same is true

Margaret Hodge made a good and understanding talk on This week in Westminster on radio 4 today. Then they ended with talk over Nadine Dorries’ new book. Ugh.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

Siderite wrote:

Whatever the opinion of Israel’s response, that doesn’t address the point of how there can be a long lasting peace if Hamas keep breaking it and signal that they intend to do so.

None of our opinions are going to address that. I think millions of people worldwide are more interested in the opinions of respected aid organisations, WHO and the UN regarding alleviating a man made humanitarian crisis that worsens by the day. I appreciate your main focus is on a long lasting peace solution Siderite but I believe others are more focused on the immediate issue affecting civilians in Gaza. That’s not to imply you aren’t interested in the humanitarian crisis as you clearly are

I agree that none of us have much power. I would say the opposite is true for those calling for a ceasefire too. It holds no sway and won’t do as both sides have no will. The protesters going for this purpose (I am not speaking of the organisers and their sympathisers, but those with a good conscience) are unlikely to achieve anything, but they don’t seem to realise it. However, it’s creating a climate of hostility, as seen as the placards, attacks on Jews and ripping of kidnapped Israeli signs. All of such creates fear for Jews to even set foot in our cities and live openly. That is something we can control and is not on.

The converse is true for anti-Muslim behaviour, which is being emboldened by the Tommy Robinsons and Douglas Murrays. The article I shared mentions some of this, and we can do our bit to bear that in mind if protesting or making arguments in the media.

I understand some want to protest, because civilian casualties are never good, but my point is what is that a ceasefire is just going to cause this to happen again in all likelihood. Israel will not accept the idea they should just accept civilian casualties of theirs as some way to placate Hamas. No country would, nor would that be tenable or moral in my opinion. This could all end if Hamas surrenders, perhaps with encouragement, and hostages are released.

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Iron Age wrote:

How about trying to understand and address any grievances, real or perceived.
It happened in South Africa, the US and even in Northern Ireland.
Happy people don’t develop terrorism.
There are evil violent people waiting for an opportunity to impose themselves on others, don’t give them that opportunity.

So, because of perceived injustices of the past, Israel should just accept Hamas slaughtering their citizens and do nothing about it? My point was not about past actions, but the current situation. Hamas have a dictatorial governance over Gaza, want to continue this, so where is the peace with the ceasefire? Is it peace if they want to break it and would most likely do so?

It’s funny how I have been called patronising when that first sentence is incredibly so. I am aware that Palestinians have grievances, some justified, but none of that excuses proliferation of anti-Semitism. When Islamists commit terror attacks here we are rightfully told not to use this to radicalise ourselves into anti-Muslim bigotry. When it comes to Israel, their actions are perfectly acceptable to enable radicalism against Israel and Jews, seemingly. What’s more, the actions of Israel are not the be all and end all for anti-Semitism. Anti-Semitism has been in existence there for centuries, as it was in Europe. In WWII the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem encouraged the formation of Muslim SS divisions to kill Jews in the Holocaust. Jews were being ethnically cleansed from Yemen, Iraq, Libya etc. I doubt the perpetrators traveled in time to see Israel come into existence and make questionable acts over the following decades. So, no, take away Israel’s actions and they won’t go away. Many of them don’t want Israel to exist; its existence is justification for them to continue.

As for South Africa and Northern Ireland. Taking away contextual differences, neither engaged in the sort of bloodshed Hamas have done. IRA and UVF launched terror attacks, but neither launched pogroms of such brutality or called for the elimination of the other side. ANC specifically launched a campaign to minimise civilian casualties, while Hamas aim to maximise it for both Palestinians and Israelis for different reasons. Both South Africa and Northern Ireland found greater peace poilitically, which Hamas do not seek. Violent resistance has achieved sod all in 75 years.

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Back on topic, an interesting piece: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/nov/10/suella-braverman-jewish-muslim-israel-hamas-war

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Whatever the opinion of Israel’s response, that doesn’t address the point of how there can be a long lasting peace if Hamas keep breaking it and signal that they intend to do so.

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Iron Age wrote:

bartonscorpion wrote:

I must admit that I am really disappointed that only Iron-Awe has attacked me, he is correct in saying that I live in the past, yes those were the times when we could afford to eat well, have a new house built when still in our early twenties, enjoy our jobs, easily pay our mortgages and elect / gas bills, enjoy our spare time without looking at a tv, lapton, notebook or telephone in our faces 15 hours a day, have a nice car with petrol being 25 litrs for £1, and not having 400,000 imigrants entering our shores per year, with 45,000 paying crooks to bring them to our shores, and our tax payers keeping 65,000 of them in hotels at a cost of over £8 million per day. Yes Iron-Awe they were the days, and there were no protests marching in masses for the likes of Hammas, lets see what bile that brings back from you I-A.
He is about the only member of the Forum Six that still cannot bare any other view but his own.

I am not a Jew, not am I a Muslim, I am however a Christian.
Should I ignore the plight of Palestinian Christians? If I plead for a ceasefire am I supporting Hamas?
Palestinian Christians are treated no better than their Muslim brothers.
If you went to Bethlehem at Christmas who would you see at the church of the Nativity?
If you went to Jerusalem at Easter, who would you see at the church of the holy sepulchre?
Yes, that’s right, Palestinian Christians.
I support a ceasefire, I support those who march for a ceasefire.
Hamas is a hateful terrorist organisation, Israel is supposed to be a civilized, democratic country, they are supposed to be the adults in the room.
Stop the killing.

Hamas have said that they won’t stop until Israel and Jews are annihilated. They keep reiterating. A ceasefire just means they will do this again. Supporting a ceasefire doesn’t mean personal support for Hamas, but I don’t see how it leads to anything but more of October 7th pogroms, rocket launches and more stealing of aid and resources so Hamas can attack Israel and Hamas leaders can bolster their own bank accounts in Qatar.

Why will Hamas respect a ceasefire when they keep breaking them? October 7th was during a ceasefire, so it will just happen again and again.

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Yeah, I am sure those chanting from the river to the sea and nodding along to some idiot calling for the destruction of Israel are completely bothered by Hamas.

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Heath wrote:

It’s a disgrace these do gooders protesting for an agreement made by opposing sides in a war to stop fighting for a certain time; a truce on Armistice day!!

Many only seem bothered by one. Singing the songs of the other, being organised by people with interesting links.

If these protests were about peace, they wouldn’t be about ‘destroying Israel’ as the chants and placards of many say and people would be happy to have anti-Hamas placards or supportive messages for the hostages. None do, and the few who turned up just got booed and hissed. Many of the people involved are as scummy as some Patriotic Alternative or BNP rally.

Many going are not like this, but they are joining up with those with views they would shun if they had another context.

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Sunak is too weak to back or sack her. Doesn’t want the blowback either way, so looks like a timid mouse.

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