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Awaywego wrote:

Hilton Built a squad to get out this division in the first season down here that’s what we all wanted. If we do get out first time jobs a good un whatever the inflated wages we’re paying.

I also wanted a club to support even if we didn’t get promoted and it went caput, because of him, long before season end.

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When he was interested at Bury, the Bury AFC members asked him why he was interested in the club and during this he said the land, so you could be right. Run the club down, make as much money off ponzi schemes and the club’s money in the meantime, then sell off the land, and walk away leaving the rest to deal with the consequences.

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My understanding is that the exact origin on the Philistines are under research, but were more from Cyprus (possibly a result of the collapse of the collapse of the Mycenae). Arabs are a Semitic people, I think

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Nor was it called ‘Palestine’ in the days of the Philistines. My understanding is that Palestinians are likely a mix of Arabs and those living there. By the time of the Romans the majority of the population was more Jewish and Philistines had declined. The more likely case is that Palestinians are a mix of Arab-Jewish inter-relations and it does nothing to disservice the claim that Israel has no legitimacy.

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The Palestinians are not Phillistines. Philistines weren’t Arabic.

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I don’t disagree with that, but I think it can do better on some issues.

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I was just saying that he has his blind spots in my opinion. I don’t think BBC News is all bad, and has many good points. My main issue with Al-Ahli was that it undermined trust in the cooperation and it left me frustrated.

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Deereyme66

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His reporting of Al-Ahli was poor to say the least and was irresponsible in my opinion. Such a sensitive event and him and others just put out a Hamas claim without evidence. They should have stated a hospital has been hit by an undetermined source, as headline, and made it clear that any claims were not concrete until the actual evidence arrived.

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Just Iron

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I wouldn’t call the British Mandate of Palestine a country in its own right. It was part of the British Empire and not subject to its own control. Before then it was part of the Ottoman Empire and before then it was part of Egyptian led Mameluk Empire. Going further back, the first mention of Palestine was from the Roman Empire, who used it to replace the name of Israel to quash Jewish rebellions against Rome.

None of this is to delegitimise Palestine’s existence, there should be a two-state solution, but it doesn’t delegitimise Israel’s existence either. Jews have existed in the ‘Holy land’ for centuries and most of Israel’s Jews do not actually hail from Europe, but from North Africa and the Middle-East.

The Brits flip-flopped over the mandate and made various promises to different groups. By the end they were not so pro-Israel and the state was only created after Israelis, USA and the UN pushed on it. Before then, I have read tales of Jewish immigrants in Cyprus kept in poor conditions as they tried to go to Israel. It should also be obvious why they were fleeing Europe in the late 40s. There could have been peace there and then, but hostility was there from the start from other Arab states. Was all of it good from the Israeli side? No, I am aware of population resettlements (though, it was not one-sided), but the idea that this somehow delegitimises Israel? Nah.

The states around them were also subject to being created through French and British interests, such as Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon. This too has created parts of the country with sects who might want their own nation state, divided by these past decrees. See the Kurds in northern Iraq and Syria, for example. Yet the bemoaning about this is far less.

Regardless, grievance mongering is not creating any hope of peace in the region. Israel is here to stay, and as much as they need to stop things like the settlements of the West Bank and its own divisive rhetoric, the destructive talk of Hamas and its supporters is only creating future hate.

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I would place more trust in European and American democracies above Russia or China. Not to blindly trust, but we have mechanisms to force out truths with a more independent judiciary, media and functioning opposition. Russia and China just don’t have that, everything is just a subsidiary of the regime (pretty much) and what little critical means exists gets stomped out.

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I am not exactly surprised, but it’s disappointing still. Fortunately, there is little international appetite for that, there would be huge international pressure and domestic opinion is sour.

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Aye, but I am pleased IB did reveal information as he did.

One thing I did notice is that the phone lines are back up now. A promising sign that Harness and co are repairing the damage done.

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Deereyme66

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Israel will have "overall security responsibility" in Gaza for "indefinite period" after war, Israel's Prime Minister Netanyahu says in interview https://t.co/7gBZE0ejZL

— CNN International (@cnni) November 7, 2023

Worrying and ominous. He may be a busted flush, since he’s deeply unpopular and might be removed after the war, but this isn’t good.

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300000+ dead Germans 1939-1945 (civilians only). Keep cheering the Allied forces. I like a good war crime.

None of this is good, I should say. Should Israel do more? I think so, certainly regarding aid. I don’t see how Israel stopping will make things more palatable, as Hamas firing rockets and looking to repeat pogroms is not a solution.

All could end if they just give up.

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For all these years I have been thinking I have some fortune in having a roof over my head. Turns out I could have been a lot easier on the streets with a tent, apparently.

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It should have been Alan introducing this, not Mahyar. I nearly turned off after the barrage of cliches at the start.

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I know; I wasn’t saying you were accusing these comedians of mocking the dead. I don’t see the harm in satirical humour even in these times if the context and subject matter are appropriate. Even if cringeworthy.

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Correction: isn’t a war.

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It’s not them they’re poking fun at, but the gullible activists on campus. My biggest problem is that it’s not very funny, nor is mr buzz word introducing it.

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The major difference is that I, and not many others, are saying this is a war. I didn’t say ‘launch a war’, because that was started when Hamas undertook the October 7 pogrom. Which is again a different context from Russia invading because ‘Ukraine is a fake country’ and for Russian imperialism. But, hey, why let that get in the way of assuming anyone who disagrees has to be duplicitous?

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bartonscorpion

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Iron-awe wrote:

So distressing seeing an Israeli father who thought his young daughter had originally been killed by Hamas, pleading for her release tonight after finding out there is a good chance she was kidnapped and taken to Gaza by Hamas. He begs for compassion from Hamas and to allow all the young Israeli children kidnapped to be released as a start to stopping the conflict. It was also reported tonight that out of over 10,000 people murdered by Israel in Gaza in the last four weeks, 4000 of these were Palestinian children. Compassion indeed.

The Israeli makes a point which I have thought for a while. No-one other than sadists thinks war is the optimal situation right now; my point has not been that this is good, but I don’t see how it can be avoided given the situation. Though, surely the best way out of this is for the hostages to be released, Hamas to surrender and free Palestine from the grip of an insane cult who endangers their lives directly through antagonising Israel and killing Palestinians who go against it. Only yesterday I saw photos and videos of Hamas operating in hospitals and artillery located next to or in schools and mosques. This is deliberate placement to ensure civilian casualties.

What I think should happen is that Arab countries should demand Hamas that the gig is up, they have no support from them and surrender with hostages released. If so, the US and UK would have no desire to continue backing Israel should Netanyahu and his far-right allies want to make territorial gains. If this was to happen we would get rid of Hamas and the war would be over. It would mean Fatah would likely get control of Gaza, and I am under no illusion as to them being good. They are still anti-Semitic, but I don’t think so mad to do anything like October 7. It would be a nudge to at least normalising things.

I get why people focus on Israel, as they are the ones launching a military operation into Gaza, but we can achieve peace by arguing for Hamas to give up too. That would also alleviate fears that future ceasefires could be broken and longer term peace is more likely. Calling on Israel to stop is one thing, but Hamas show no indication to stop rocket fire or attacks on Israeli citizens (and they don’t care who they kill – Bedouin, Israeli Arabs, Druze etc were all killed on Oct 7). That isn’t peace. However, if I was to say this at one of these ‘peace marches’ I suspect there would be a lot of anger directed at me from the so called pacifists.

I share Emily Maitlis’s sentiments here for Palestine.

pic.twitter.com/nRNcJHmO5U

— emily m (@maitlis) November 6, 2023

You can see the reaction of the Palestinian activists here in the replies, who leap to the defense of Hamas, despite claiming they don’t support them.

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bartonscorpion

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I agree, whenever I discuss this (or anything) in person it can be a lot less fraught, because it’s easier to feed off others’ emotions. They aren’t so obvious online and can lead to misunderstandings and spiraling, as I have probably been guilty of here. Again, I apologise for getting heated.

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Deereyme66

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Deereyme66 wrote:

‘you have moaned about lengthy posts anyway.’

No I haven’t! I made a comment about your lengthy posts. That’s not moaning. And you’re accusing me of slander? Ffs.

It was probably a misinterpretation of a criticism. I realise it’s an emotional subject and to have found it frustrating to be made out to not care about the humanitarian crisis. That was the main issue for me. Like I say, it’s devastating. I just can’t see how else it can play out. Urban warfare will never be safe, we have seen it in other cases to less outrage. I realise I snapped in response to that. I don’t think I have been unfair to others on here in their motives previously, so it rankled. I have criticised Israel a lot in this thread, maybe not for responding to an act of war, but I don’t think I am so blind to Israel’s faults. I am not going to criticise Israel more than I would other countries for such conduct in war. They should allow more aid in. Though, this can all end if Hamas surrender and give up the hostages. There has been little to no pressure on that, so I do find some unbalance myself from some. Palestinians deserve better than Hamas, who see their lives as pawns for their ideology and rule with an iron fist. I cannot see how peace can be achieved long term with them in existence as a credible force.

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What should be happening then? Israel not launching any offensive and accepting Hamas wanting to kill them? Break more ceasefires, launch more rockets? This is what I mean and I get attacked as if I am evil for it. Yet I don’t think many who speak of the need for a ceasefire come up with anything satisfactory for how it can be just lived with, which is an appalling thought anyway.

I admit that I responded in emotion, but I don’t think I have been the only one twisting. I have repeatedly said that I think many, including those on here, are motivated in good conscience. Shame the ‘balanced’ ones can’t for any defense of Israel for its right to self-defend.

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You want to know my opinion on Palestinian civilians? It’s devastating. Of course it is. I have felt sad about it for the past few weeks, not just because of the Oct 7 horror, but because I do not like war. All deaths involved are horrible, even in the most just of wars. Of course it’s sad to see upset parents, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives etc. It’s devastating and I wish the world didn’t have to be so cruel. My point has been to talk of what else can be done, because Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself like every other nation has done. We have done similar in WWII, against ISIS and other wars. Yet the bombings of Hamburg, Stuttgart, Leipzig etc did not remove the just reason for WWII. The sad deaths of those German civilians (300,000, at least) caught in the crossfire of destroying German infrastructure were of course catastrophic, but it didn’t make the war wrong. Believe me or not, but I do find it distressing, as I have said before. I don’t know why you want me to comment more on this, since you have moaned about lengthy posts anyway.

I don’t even like Netanyahu’s corrupt government. I do not like the settler movement in the West Bank and worry over the remarks of Netanyahu’s partners. Yet people saying I am oblivious to the humanitarian situation do not consider what the alternative is, in my opinion. Israel should not accept their citizens as regular folly for Hamas. Hamas have made it clear what their motives are; they have been on Saudi TV twice this week talking about the need to annihilate all Jews. Like every other ceasefire, they will look to break it and to kill Jews. They will take all the aid they can and use it for attacking Israel, not helping civilians. A ceasefire just means more of this.

I have admittedly got heated, and apologise for some strong statements. I do not think some charges against me are fair, though. I can say I haven’t spoken as much about Palestinian casualties is because my focus has been on what can be done for Israel given the context of the situation of hostages taken and worrying over this happening again. I have expressed dislike at many of those involved with the Palestinian rights movement, but that hasn’t been aimed at this forum. I have said that many who go and have sympathies have a good moral conscience, which is more than what has been said for anyone defending Israel’s right to defend itself (that is automatically ‘unbalanced’ seemingly). I don’t think it’s unbalanced to criticise those celebrating Oct 7, Hamas etc for their anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, the Palestinian rights movement has done incredibly little to distance themselves from it.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

Siderite wrote:

I could say the same to you and others about Israelis tbh.

Yeah, you could but but you’d be totally incorrect. All I’ve posted about is how Israel’s response is effecting civilians. If you’ve posted anything substantial about the spiralling humanitarian crisis, affecting children every day then I apologise.

I could also say that I have posted about how I have mentioned that war brings casualty and of course that’s bad before, that my focus here has been that Israel has a right to defend itself. However, saying anything in support of Israel is apparently ‘unbalanced’, yet disregarding it and no comments on how Israel can defend itself without this is apparently ‘balanced’.

No comments about dead Israelis which triggered this, fine. Saying only a little bit about Palestinians means you’re evil.

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Siderite wrote:

I do agree, DM. It’s bad and it does make me sad for all involved.

I mean, what do you think I was sad about here?

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Deereyme66 wrote:

‘First to commend you Sidey for a detailed and principled stand which reflects a well informed and humble attitude.’

Because you agree with it. There’s barely anything about the inhumanity towards Palestinian civilians in any of his lengthy posts. It’s not a balanced view. Any fool can see that. It’s ironic how you are both quick to jump on the flag wavers and protesters, of which I’m not one, but celebrate each others position. I find it an uncomfortable read. Just my opinion.

I have said more than once that it’s bleak and sad, precisely because Palestinians are dying, as well as Oct 7th. Please don’t slander. My point is that it’s complex and there are no easy solutions. Saying Israel has the right to defend itself and take out threats, like any other nation would (with far less objections) is my point. Hamas don’t care or want a ceasefire, they have repeatedly broken them and say they would do again and again. Is the only solution that Israel just accepts their civilians should be subjected to pogroms? People say they can and should be able to look after that, since Oct 7 came after a massive bit of negligence from Netanyahu’s government. Well, they can always do that and lock down the borders more. Then the same people accuse them of blockading Gaza. They can’t win.

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