Humanitarian pause , Zionist style

[64]

Leave your house forever or die,sounds very humane.I support Israel

[Siderite]

If only they didn’t say evacuate so more could die. Or better yet, leave Hamas apparatus intact so Hamas can continue attacking Israel and you can pretend there’s nothing wrong.

[Iron-awe]

It’s easy saying Palestinians should kick Hamas out of Gaza, I’m guessing it’s not that simple.

[Deereyme66]

Not sure if you’re suggesting Siderite is saying that or if it’s a general observation? However, I will say that hearing numerous times on TV and radio from Israeli government officials over the last few weeks that the civilians are responsible for allowing Hamas to control Gaza is a joke. How do they think they could prevent it, in reality? Surely they are powerless in that respect?

[Siderite]

Yeah, I am categorically not blaming Palestinians as a group for this. I understand Hamas govern by totalitarianism and rule by fear and brainwashing.

I do blame Hamas though for initiating a conflict and doing their best to maximise civilian deaths. Israel’s government are, predictably, fanning their own flames. At least they can be voted out and hopefully they will be as soon as possible.

[Heath]

“Yeah, I am categorically not blaming Palestinians as a group for this”.

Yet you seem willing to accept the slaughter of innocent Palestinians. What was the latest figure on Hamas terrorists killed and hostages released?

[Siderite]

I mean I am not the one making the decisions, but I ask again what is the alternative? Let Hamas continue their war against Israel, launching pogroms and missiles? You don’t seem to care about that or how Hamas have deliberately embedded themselves in society, so that such infrastructure becomes part of a war machine. It’s not so much I am ‘willing slaughter’, it’s more that I blame Hamas for that and do not see how an alternative is viable.

I like the fact you think hostages would have been released without war. Yeah, Hamas might say they want to slaughter Jews, but they would have been good enough to let them go with some diplomacy (and that doing deals with genocidal terrorists would be a viable option, enabling them to think they can do it again for more benefits). Also, that the Hamas detailed casualties are going to include who was a Hamas fighter. Like they’re bound to honesty.

[Deereyme66]

Just to be clear ‘willing slaughter’ and ‘you seem willing to accept the slaughter of innocent Palestinians’ are quite different things Siderite. The former being a more sinister accusation. That’s not what Heath posted.

[Siderite]

Fair, but my point stands with that amended quote.

[Fifty Pence]

More Palestinian deaths increases the anti-Israeli sentiment in Palestine and in turn increases the likelihood of Hamas winning the next election. More Israeli deaths/kidnaps increases the anti-Palestinian sentiment in Israel and in turn increases the likelihood of Likud winning the next election. Whilst increasing tension between moderate voters and extremists in each region. A very vicious circle.

[Siderite]

It should be noted that there hasn’t been an election in Gaza since 2006. Hamas aren’t the sort to give up power easily anyway.

Your other points are valid, but with the situation, I don’t see how it’s avoidable.

[64]

You really think bombing civilians,hospitals,people using safe roues etc,will stop people hating a regime that allows it citizens to steal their homes and demolish,fires live rounds into peaceful protest killing hundreds, shuts off their power on ax whim, If I was a Gaza Palestinian I’d take up the fight too, wouldn’t you?
There’s didn’t start a few d weeks ago so did it?
The world had to protect the Palestinians and their homes from Israeli settlers,this is the underlying issue, and by forced of necessary, UN border forces maybe, only then when they have years of lasting safety will they one day not turn to men like Hamas.
They believe Palestinians to like vermin ,it cannot continue ,certainly our governments shouldn’t support it Thankfully many in nl Israel feel this way, hopefully they will gain a greater voice within the country

[Siderite]

You really think there will be peace when Hamas want Israel destroyed? This conflict started on Oct 7. A ceasefire was in existence before then. Yet you think peace will last with a new one and neither side want one. You only seem bothered by one side involved.

There was no evidence of bombing safe routes outside of Hamas. You seem easily trusting of them. Meanwhile Palestinians have said Hamas fired on them for leaving, but who cares about that? It doesn’t suit the narrative.

If Settlers are the issue, why is this happening in Gaza? The Settlers aren’t there, but the west bank.

[Heath]

“You don’t seem to care about that or how Hamas have deliberately embedded themselves in society, so that such infrastructure becomes part of a war machine”.

Don’t recall making any such statement. In fact I commented on the fact before the invasion. Of course I care because of the deaths of innocent Palestinians and where have I ever written anything of support of Hamas.

All I want is for the Israelis to stop the killing. They are the overwhelming war machine.

[Siderite]

I care too, but blame Hamas. Maybe I was strong in my reply to you. However I feel undue accusations my way from you too. I don’t see how conflict can be avoided. It is either Israel accept their civilians are open season for Hamas or they do what they can to prevent it again and try and release hostages. Israel can stop the conflict when Hamas refrain from conflict themselves. There will be no ceasefire whole Hamas want to continue conflict themselves.

I have not accused you of posting in support of Hamas. I am just saying that Oct 7 made it impossible for there not to be. Israel cannot allow it so that pogroms and kidnapping is normalised. No nation could. Hamas should have realised such before attacking Israel, but everything they have done is to damage Palestinians in the hope of destroying Israel. US intelligence are now saying Al Shifa hospital is a Hamas base from their own investigations. It’s all tragic, but it was all caused by Hamas. There would be no war without their actions

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Just Iron

[64]

https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
ceasefire Israel style .
The Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported in January that since “December 2021, soldiers are allowed to shoot at Palestinians who are fleeing if they had previously thrown stones or Molotov cocktails.”
https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/israel-killed-five-times-many-palestinians-2022-it-killed-same
Ceasefire?
ON top of those killed for protecting their homes by Police an a regular ,these are killed for being targeted by the ever so quaintly named “settlers” and resisting.
https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2023/11/israeli-settler-attacks-force-963-palestinians-out-west-bank-homes-gaza-war

https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestine-settler-bedouin-displacement-violence-un-108e11712310b5ea099dbded7be8effb CEASEFIRE?

[Iron-awe]

Yet again on today’s news more examples of Israeli humanitarianism, move to the South of Gaza because we will bomb the North to get to Hamas. However the South is being bombed and more Palestinians who have moved from the North are being killed. I’m sure the Israeli propoganda machine will have a perfectly valid reasonable reason for this to be happening.

[Siderite]

They would argue that it’s Hamas targets being attacked. People call it propaganda, but it’s funny seeing ‘propaganda’ coming true and the excuse makers saying stuff like hospital security having a valid reason to have Kalashnikovs (alongside grenades and RPGs).

I am more uneasy with how that has happened, but the evacuation is at direct odds with genocidal intent. The south has been bombed less, but it does seem contradictory.

[Just Iron]

‘Today’s news.’ That wouldn’t be the same news that repeatedly proclaimed that an Israeli missile had targeted a hospital 3 weeks ago and, using Hamas stats, had killed hundreds of innocents. After the damage had been done ..cue a whimpered apology that the rocket actually killed a handful of people in the hospital car park AND was a misfired Hamas rocket. Was it also the same news that took a Reuters Press release this week that as Israel entered the big central hospital they were targeting medics and Arabic speakers. Again a repeated news item stoking the anti Israel and anti Jewish feeling across the nation. Then comes the snivelling apology that the Reuters statement was that Israel were actually deploying Medics and Arabic speakers in their offensive to try to help civilians.
All very worrying for all those of us who are trying to navigate the deep moral challenges that this situation presents. Maybe we should start on some solid ground .. that if you are an Israeli Jewish mother and Hamas gain the ascendancy then you can look forward to having your baby baked in an oven before your eyes before rape and murder. And filmed and posted on Facebook or WhatsApp on your phone so that friends and relatives can participate.
And will my response make a jot of difference on here. Probably not. But at least those who don’t see Hamas as anything more sinister than ‘Resistance’ can keep Jetemy Corbyn company.

[Siderite]

I don’t want to make that accusation against Iron-Awe, but there is a disparity in how people in general seem to frame this. Anything which doesn’t have Israel as the world’s biggest villain gets dismissed and anything put out by Hamas gets less sceptical treatment. I don’t quibble over numbers too much, because they’re most likely wrong, but civilians will have died all the same so it seems like arguing over split hairs. Though, the dodgy missile at Al-Ahli shows that some civilian casualties will come from Hamas at least, yet the ceasefire talks are only aimed at Israel.

The BBC, and others, have utterly shamed themselves with such rubbish and that they consistently make amateurish errors over this conflict alone shows there is an institutional issue, in my opinion. Someone probably skim read that Reuters report and leapt to a conclusion through a biased assumption. Jeremy Bowen was appalling with displaying personal opinion as some sort of statement of fact the other day.

[Iron-awe]

Lost your velvet glove there JI in fact it was a bit of a rant on your part. I understand the siuation for you is very delicate but at the end of the day Palestinians are being murdered after complying with Israeli instructions. You can dress it up however your conscience directs you.

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Heath

[64]

Bloody BBC reporting people being killed and ethnically cleansed,don’t they know their role? It’s only 10kor more murdered by these cuddly “defense forces”
Those patients that died should have moved anyway,lazy good for nothings

[Siderite]

It might help if you address points made and not just spew straw men. More fool me for wanting news to address what happened, and not make false claims. The funny thing is that you will then claim to be against propaganda.

I do note the world’s most moral people had far less to say on the Syrian civil war, Yemen, Tigray conflict and Myanmar. In fact, many of them were telling me how evil Ukraine’s corrupt when arguing about supporting them or that the chemical attacks and bombardment by Assad and his allies were justified or that chemical attacks were fake news. Stop the War were throwing out Syrians from their silly little meetings during these times because they didn’t just back their narrative.

Many now, of course, using pictures from Syria that they dismissed as ‘fake news’ to claim it’s from the current Israel conflict.

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Just Iron

[Iron-awe]

Not sure why you go off on a tangent Siderite, the last few posts are about the murder of Palestinians by Israeli bombs in the South of Gaza where the Israelis told them to go, are you saying all of those current deaths in the South of Gaza by Israeli bombs and tanks is fake news?

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Heath

[Siderite]

*sighs* I was talking about that in response to fans64, who was using it to rebuke any claims of poor coverage from BBC as being something else, and after it was brought up by JI. Nowhere did I say that claim was fake news, I specifically mentioned what was poor in the BBC coverage, so this just feels like straw manning.

[Just Iron]

You’d have to define ‘a rant’ IA before I could see if the cap fits. I referenced facts re the news reporting and the barbarism I quoted was only a small part of the savagery which Hamas perpetrated.
The gleeful eagerness with which so called evidence of Israel’s crimes is met in the wider sphere ..and to some extent on this forum .. whilst minimising Hamas’ clearly stated and thoroughly demonstrated murderous intent is dispiriting and sickening. You mistake my general respectful tone and politeness for ‘a velvet glove.’ I don’t want to drift into the endless and near abusive wrangling that so many discussions seem to deteriorate into. I like to be respectful and try to see where others come from. But I ain’t wearing no gloves on this one.
A further observation would be that some posters are engaging in a form of serial ‘baiting’ to draw a response .. I’m not sure what satisfaction it gives but we humans draw comfort from some strange places.

[Iron-awe]

Gleeful eagerness, sounds more like paranoia on your part JI, I know it’s very personal for you regarding this conflict but keep a sense of perspective and I’m not baiting anybody but if that’s how you interpret facts out forward then that is for you to judge

[Just Iron]

I wasn’t referring to you, IA.

[Deereyme66]

One could easily point to strawmanning in evidence from you and JI Siderite but it matters not to those civilians suffering. As I said the other day, you seem more interested in how this is being discussed on here and the wider social media sphere. JI is similarly fighting a propaganda war. The majority of posters on this subject on here point out horrific inhumanity and we’re taken down a level or two. What a state that we can’t express concern about an avoidable humanitarian disaster without feeling like we’re supposedly taking sides. Sorry if that irks, but it’s my honest opinion. Anyway, carry on Beeb bashing guys if it makes you happy. Throw in a bit more whataboutery while you’re at it. The irony.

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Heath

[Siderite]

No straw manning in my posts. I addressed the point being made earlier today by IA and said I am uneasy because of it. Fans64’s comments about gripes with the BBC coverage are a clear straw man, as that was not to do with what I had said. Same with IA’s following post. I only mentioned it because JI did. The importance of the news not spewing out false information is more important than that and the only thing damaging the BBC’s reputation here, alongside others, is their own shoddiness. It’s completely false to respond to posts on such by implying it’s because of reporting on civilian casualties. It’s because of demonstrable falsehoods that I believe to come from bias, and is important for news organisations to stamp out because it damages trust in anything claimed by them on this topic. As for my own many errors of judgement, I am aware I can make some, but if pointed out I will apologise or realise I am wrong, as I did with you the other day.

It’s not the pointing out of the horrible situation, but I have disagreed with hyperbolic claims of genocide and excuses about treatment of Palestinians in response to supporting violent resistance from Hamas or anti-Semitism on our streets. That shows, from some, a clear ambivalence to Jews and does lean towards side taking. If people are going to respond with comments like that it doesn’t come across so neutrally.

I don’t even like Netanyahu’s government, think it’s wretched, the actions in the West Bank are appalling and am wondering about their specific strategy. I just recognise that conflict was initiated on Oct 7th and think Israel has a right to defend itself as others have. We have done similar in the past and recently, yet we didn’t get the same rhetoric. I don’t think we’d get the same anger if we had a genocidal cult massacre our civilians, take hostages, and then took military action in response. There’d be widespread anger about us not doing anything, I think. Even if the attackers came from a a group we had treated badly. Yet to suggest Israel has the right to defend itself gets ire.

I can repeat myself until I am blue in the face, but it won’t make any difference. It’s not the arguments about the way the war is being conducted, but what I see as an unfair skew which does not understand the side they disagree with. People would say the same about me, but I recognise that Palestinians have faced injustice and have been exiled. It will not be solved by grievances and supporting Hamas though, and cannot through any moral compunction. As much as Israel needs to change with Netanyahu going, there needs to be a change in direction in Palestine too, because some of the stuff believed by many (not saying all) will never yield peace and Israel (by which I include the liberals, not just the Likud head bangers) will not tolerate being destroyed to appease extremists.

Many who support pro-Palestine may in their heart and head want peace, but there is a strong element who do not and are fostering division and hate. Today I have seen clips of people trying to hunt a Jew in London, the past marches had speeches and chants of anti-Semitism and destruction of Israel. All of this does not point to peace.

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