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Also, that should be Capitol! Not been my day!

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Sorry, genuine typo. I meant 2/5s, not 3/5s.

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I think a big part of your post falls down in that I haven’t said all. I have said a large chunk. You can dress it up how you like, but the conspiracist right make up a large amount when it comes to polls on this. At least 3/5s or something supported the Capital storming, and we’re supposed to brush this aside and ignore it for unity, while they do nothing in return to promote reconciliation? Not only that many of the Republican politicans back them up on this, so it is clearly ingrained in the party.

On the other hand, ask any antifa what they think of Joe Biden and what do you think they’ll say? They will say he’s a neoliberal centrist who isn’t good and probably as bad as Trump. So, I’d hardly say there’s an equivalence.

I made it clear I have problems with aspects of the left. That should be evident, including a lot of those who support BLM and come up with barmy ideas. However, they are not Joe Biden, and as I said, if anyone bothers to read what they think and converse with them it’s clear they hate Biden as much as Trump fans. However, the key is the nutty lefties like this aren’t the ones in charge, unlike the Republicans, and I am not convinced their numbers are as strong. Which is why the Republicans bother me a lot more. Wake me up when Democrats make outright assaults on democracy and when the Squad aren’t sniping from the sidelines. Pelosi, Biden et al. are not these and are well within democratic norms. Just as Bush mostly was, Reagan, Eisenhower and co. The current Republicans aren’t that though and will yap about election rigging and will gerrymander to suit them. Their responses in 2020 showed their commitment to democracy, and barring a few, many showed their true colours.

It’s why I hate both sidesism. Of course there are problems with both sides, but all too often those arguing this make out it’s identical on both, and it always seems to downplay right wing authoritarianism and radicalism in favour of focusing on left wing. Balance isn’t about saying both sides are as bad as each other, because that’s not always the case.

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I didn’t mean that you were against them as people. I just meant you are more against the principle and institution than I am. :-)

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Northumbiron

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I am probably more ambivalent about the monarchy than you, NI (I am not pro, but am probably more of a half-arsed republican), but I agree with it being needless distraction from both sides.

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They did say they were going to the States for a more private life. This doesn’t seem to be that.

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Gurnelista wrote:

3) Afghanistan withdrawal? Well, the Yanks went in ostensibly for counter-terrorism purposes, not to hang around and protect Christians. Do you really think the USA should be invading countries around the world to protect followers of Jesus?

I don’t think this is really fair. It’s not just Christians suffering in Afghanistan and the result of the withdrawal has been terrible for those, which include Shia’a, gays, women and people who worked with the NATO troops, alongside Christians. I don’t think JI was saying human rights only matters for Christians, even if he could have expanded on the list of victims of the Taliban. The event wasn’t a positive for the Afghan people and that is something which lies at the feet of those responsible, which includes Biden, even if Trump started the process.

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What’s the point of the Trust if they were to only ever act on outsiders’ suggestions? As voice of the fans they should be doing something to represent us in our time of need. It would be a bit ridiculous to set up something which can be used as an outlet for things like this then palm off responsibility to non-members for any perceived lethargy.

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North Lincolnshire Irons, Awaywego, SODIron

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You misunderstand me. I do not think all the problems lie on one side of the divide. I am not keen on the Squad and many like them, who also worry me. I am not keen on some of the identity politics stuff. However, they are not at the moment in complete control. The problem is that the intolerant and rigid fundamentalists are in power within the Republicans. Therefore, they are currently the greater threat to democracy.

The problem when you ‘both sides’ it is that we’re left with comparing smaller fry like Clinton’s emails and Trump abusing all powers and privileges and him, with many others, trying to overturn election results based on nothing. Clinton made silly comments about not conceding, but did, which is far less than what the Republicans did. Yet we’re supposed to see an equivalence? I don’t think so.

Ultimately I do not think it’s healthy for the USA to be so polarised, but a large chunk of that issue comes from the fact that so many Republicans have gone into conspiracies (more and more anti-Semitic too, par the course for conspiracies) and rigid authoritarian thinking, where they want it all their own way. I do not know how I am supposed to react but disdain. Sure, I agree with trying to win people over, but nodding along with what passes as mainstream Republican ideology these days? Not a chance and that shouldn’t be pandered to. Many would only accept pandering to.

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And it took a Hull fan to first mention him on this thread! :-)

Anyway, I hope there are no hard feelings, JI. I may appear blunt, maybe, but I feel like I owe others some honesty. I don’t want to be two faced, I do try and separate the belief from the believer, and I judge on a case to case basis with individuals.

Feel free to open up about bpg, if you do so wish. His sniping at you is rather tedious.

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Iron-awe, Just Iron, TwoWrights

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Many Republicans are simply not interested in unity. Unity isn’t just about the Democrats doing whatever to suit Republicans, and even that wouldn’t be good enough for them. We forever hear about what Democrats need to do to win over Republican voters, but never the other way round. Unity for many Republicans mean do as they want otherwise they’ll play the victim and cry about being ignored, and that’s not going to happen, nor should it. The world doesn’t revolve around them and if they cannot compromise and accept that then it’s not anyone else’s problem.

I mean Tucker Carlson gets 5.2 million viewers, largely Republican, and he peddles Great Replacement crap. Am I supposed to just ignore this and say such views should be just accepted and not criticised for unity, because it might hurt their feelings? No, that’s silly. It wouldn’t wash with Corbynites, it doesn’t wash here.

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I agree, but the decision was made in 2021. It would be like listing Farage as an idiot of the year for his campaign during the Brexit referendum because we still have consequences.

It’s clear that he wasn’t referring to all who voted Republican. However, my view is that there is too large a chunk who are ok with such malicious behaviour. Polls consistently show it. I don’t see why I should be politically correct and spare such feelings, because their feelings are precious. Too many were happy with a misogynistic and disabled bashing president and worldview, taking on damaging conspiracies (I mean, hundreds did storm the Capital building and many sympathised). I don’t see why I or Biden should pander to such nonsense because it might hurt feelings (can’t be having that). Unity takes two and the statement was made to show he was willing, so long as the Republicans act in kind. Given their response has been to field more idiots yapping about election rigging and they engage in malicious stunts like jetting migrants off to the north-east, I don’t see it as some big vice not to indulge such silliness. If the Republicans want to radicalise themselves it’s not Biden’s job to pat them on the back to make themselves feel better. Nor is it mine to say their ideas aren’t malicious or dumb. Of course he should do what he sees fit to suit everyone, I am not talking about excluding people from societal benefits or anything remotely like that, but many Republicans would never be happy with a Democrat no matter what. Their extreme conspiracies and demonisation shows that. I don’t know how Biden could possibly unite such people, and they’re not a small chunk of the Republican base either.

If anyone who thinks the likes of DeSantis, Boebert, Cruz and co would genuinely compromise and not act so maliciously, then I have a bridge to sell. We have had years of Republican demonising of Democrats and refusing to work with them, even when they agree (Mitch McConnell was famous for it under Obama). When the Democrats grow tired of such games all of a sudden they cry foul.

As for the analogy. Both a sizeable chunk of Corbynites and Republicans have supported some abhorrent views and conspiracies. I don’t see why I should view one group differently than the other because it might make supporters uncomfortable. People are not their beliefs, I try my best to separate the two when dealing with people, but if people want to get themselves behind silly conspiracies which damage democratic norms and harm others then they can’t escape negative opinions. If people actively engage and excuse the misogyny, as many did and what such deplorable comments was aimed at, then it’s a bit snowflakey to cry about hurt feelings from such.

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I agree that Afghanistan was a mess, but that was 2021. Also, many of the right don’t want unity. They want to rant about how Democrats are evil child grooming paedos operating via pizza joints and rig elections. All unsubstantiated. However, Democrats are forever expected to placate such, while nothing expected in return. I am sorry, but if a good chunk of the American right want to do that and pal around with conspiracy theorists, some Holocaust deniers, they will face a negative reaction. Just as the anti-Semite apologetic Corbynites would. Hurt feelings from being seen as deplorable be damned.

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While the US economy isn’t great, it hasn’t fared asbadly as some. Though, given his support of Ukraine I cannot give him much stick. It’s more than many across the aisle would have do e, and that would have been a catastrophe.

Mangling your leadership so badly that 70000 soldiers die for nothing really takes the cake for malice and stupidity.

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It really doesn’t come across that way when you have spent your time on here sniping at others.

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Putin has to be the biggest idiot, even among Trump, Truss and the other dimwits.

He assumed that the Ukrainians would come to his aid, because he genuinely thought that Russian propaganda about the Ukrainian politicals being out of touch with the Ukrainians who are desperate to return to Russia. He thought he would look like the military genius and be a proven threat to the west, which he blames for Russia’s apparent weakness.

Instead the might of Russia has been embarrassed, they failed to make any meaningful ground, lose what they do control and regularly make blunders which make it evident that NATO, and even singular NATO nations, would better them in a war.

Now their propaganda outlets desperately try and make joy out of failing to hold many major cities:

During Russia's New Year special on state TV, they openly addressed the West to say, "Like it or not, Russia is enlarging!" The rest of the clip should give you a general idea as to the mood in the studio. pic.twitter.com/EcBxhEabS0

— Julia Davis (@JuliaDavisNews) January 2, 2023

All the deluded fools who supported and apologised for this, from Galloway to Farage, saying we shouldn’t poke the Russian bear just look like idiots. We apparently poked the Russian bear and it crumbled under the threat of a united smaller nation. Now they’re trying to scramble for some legitimacy while they bomb civilians to oblivion and massacre those on the ground. The propaganda war has truly been lost by the man some tried to make out was some astounding PR genius, adept at social media manipulation.

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TwoWrights

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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-64127827

Some context about Santos.

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Oh give over. I may disagree with JI, but this sarcastic sniping at him is tedious. I can find common ground in humanity with those I disagree with. I try to separate the view from the human as much as I can, and in context. I am not finding common ground with Trump’s neo-Nazi buddies like Fuentes.

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Putin and the moronic Republicans who continue to yap about election rigging and demonstrate their opposition to democracy.

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Deereyme66

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Just Iron wrote:

Interesting perspectives. I’m enjoying reading this thread. Alot of sense there NI. Bucks seems to feature quite alot so I would add a further couple of comments. Firstly IA I don’t think he needs medical help. The old ‘keep taking the tablets’ approach can lighten the mood at times but if it becomes a ‘go to’ strategy it contributes to that dynamic which leads to fewer and fewer posters. Secondly, and probably more provocatively, I don’t think that Bucks does get a fair crack of the whip on many occasions. His style isn’t mine by any means. I think it takes a fair amount of goodwill and self discipline to explore a topic with someone who presents as he does, especially if we sit on the other side of the debate. I frequently see an over eagerness to dismiss what Bucks is saying just because it’s him and not on the merits of what he is offering. A bit more reflection on this and the umber of contributors might increase.

I don’t think you can blame people entirely for not going along with Bucks when you acknowledge his debating tactics are easily aggravating. Personally, I have got a bit fed up of being straw manned, especially when he accuses others of treating others badly. I know I have room to improve, but I try and reflect on how I have engaged and improve for next time in any discussion. I think Bucks should pay attention to your comments, but he’d probably see that as a personal attack.

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Just Iron

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I don’t think voting Tory is a sufficient reason to call someone evil. Though, of course you should ne able to air your view.

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I think it’s like the twitter pile on effect. Bucks is forthright in his views and many disagree. Those who disagree often signal their disagreement, which makes it look like people ganging up on him. Throw in the odd joke and mixed in comment which goes too far and it does appear like targeting.

It’s a fine line. We all know what people find irritating about him, and I have pointed it out through frustration and trying to make him see how his behaviours appear to others, from my point of view, in a futile attempt to create a reset. I won’t pretend that I haven’t ever overstepped the mark myself when responding. However, I try to be civil, at least before I get fed up of being misrepresented and made to be a stereotype. Also, when I have made small jokes referencing him it’s not really meant maliciously. I hope Bucks can see that, and I am more than happy to laugh at myself, so long as it’s not meant in spite.

I am aware that I am an opinionated bugger and like all opinionated buggers, we need our soapbox kicking from underneath our feet occasionally. :-)

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You did stumble on to non-football, to be fair, so I don’t know why you’d expect footy chat on this. Be warned: we’re all freaks here. :-)

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TwoWrights, Iron-awe, Just Iron

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He’s a good orator and I am not against his union work.

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Northumbiron

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billpuntonsghost wrote:

NI- when you posted “ isn’t that what your Jesus preached”? ,my reply was spot on.
It was an idiotic reply-even (as you do)declare the Bible is a “ fairy story” ,even an atheist would laugh .

It was obviously a reference to Jesus’s teachings on wealth. Anyway, it’s all superfluous. Your objection to Zelensky on this is nonsense. The Ukrainians will have nothing if they surrender to Russia, as you are so ambivalent about, and your ‘superior’ Christian moral code you tell us atheists is meaningless without God hasn’t exactly led you to what I and many see as a moral position. To be actively ambivalent to mass murder of civilians is ghoulish.

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Deereyme66, Heath, TwoWrights

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64 wrote:

,never said he was Bucks.I’d not insult him in that way. he’s not an extremist which is what that link says to be hard is.

His views on Ukraine and Putin are typical of that of the hard left, as are his views on socialism. He may not be an extremist in the mould of Lenin, but he’s hardly some milquetoast centre-lefty.

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Mick Lynch is hardly a centrist, no matter what you think of him.

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Only a few months ago he was floating the idea of same sex civil partnerships. He will need to be true to his word for respect, but hardly the actions of some villain as portrayed.

When looking for men of the year we won’t find squeaky clean figures. As alluded to, Lynch accused Ukraine of provoking Russia and making Nazi implications, which is Kremlin drivel. It shouldn’t totally detract from his union work, but if we’re criticising Zelensky’s suggestion for his faults, we should with Lynch.

However, I would say Zelensky wins, because being the figure for democracy and and sovereignty against a fascist and murderous invader is something.

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As opposed to yhe saintly Mick Lynch who has apologised for Russia?

I am not interested in such ridiculous statements. Zelensky has stood up bravely for his nation’s sovereignty and democracy. Is he perfect? No, but it deserves recognition for its mean8ng and rightness.

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You do realise most Ukrainians supported him before and even more so after the Russian invasion, so I imagine he acted perfectly in the knowledge they wanted him to act as he did. But, hey, who is Zelensky to say? There’s a guy from the UK who has never met a Ukrainian in his life to speak for their best interests. Which is seemingly to accept being killed by a state murdering them in massacres and mass bombings.

Hilarious how you then claim to be a moral authority and moan about chaos and misery when you are clearly ambivalent to the chaos and misery of Ukrainians and see the person standing up against this as the bad guy.

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