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You want to know my opinion on Palestinian civilians? It’s devastating. Of course it is. I have felt sad about it for the past few weeks, not just because of the Oct 7 horror, but because I do not like war. All deaths involved are horrible, even in the most just of wars. Of course it’s sad to see upset parents, brothers, sisters, husbands, wives etc. It’s devastating and I wish the world didn’t have to be so cruel. My point has been to talk of what else can be done, because Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself like every other nation has done. We have done similar in WWII, against ISIS and other wars. Yet the bombings of Hamburg, Stuttgart, Leipzig etc did not remove the just reason for WWII. The sad deaths of those German civilians (300,000, at least) caught in the crossfire of destroying German infrastructure were of course catastrophic, but it didn’t make the war wrong. Believe me or not, but I do find it distressing, as I have said before. I don’t know why you want me to comment more on this, since you have moaned about lengthy posts anyway.

I don’t even like Netanyahu’s corrupt government. I do not like the settler movement in the West Bank and worry over the remarks of Netanyahu’s partners. Yet people saying I am oblivious to the humanitarian situation do not consider what the alternative is, in my opinion. Israel should not accept their citizens as regular folly for Hamas. Hamas have made it clear what their motives are; they have been on Saudi TV twice this week talking about the need to annihilate all Jews. Like every other ceasefire, they will look to break it and to kill Jews. They will take all the aid they can and use it for attacking Israel, not helping civilians. A ceasefire just means more of this.

I have admittedly got heated, and apologise for some strong statements. I do not think some charges against me are fair, though. I can say I haven’t spoken as much about Palestinian casualties is because my focus has been on what can be done for Israel given the context of the situation of hostages taken and worrying over this happening again. I have expressed dislike at many of those involved with the Palestinian rights movement, but that hasn’t been aimed at this forum. I have said that many who go and have sympathies have a good moral conscience, which is more than what has been said for anyone defending Israel’s right to defend itself (that is automatically ‘unbalanced’ seemingly). I don’t think it’s unbalanced to criticise those celebrating Oct 7, Hamas etc for their anti-Semitism. Unfortunately, the Palestinian rights movement has done incredibly little to distance themselves from it.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

Siderite wrote:

I could say the same to you and others about Israelis tbh.

Yeah, you could but but you’d be totally incorrect. All I’ve posted about is how Israel’s response is effecting civilians. If you’ve posted anything substantial about the spiralling humanitarian crisis, affecting children every day then I apologise.

I could also say that I have posted about how I have mentioned that war brings casualty and of course that’s bad before, that my focus here has been that Israel has a right to defend itself. However, saying anything in support of Israel is apparently ‘unbalanced’, yet disregarding it and no comments on how Israel can defend itself without this is apparently ‘balanced’.

No comments about dead Israelis which triggered this, fine. Saying only a little bit about Palestinians means you’re evil.

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Siderite wrote:

I do agree, DM. It’s bad and it does make me sad for all involved.

I mean, what do you think I was sad about here?

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Deereyme66 wrote:

‘First to commend you Sidey for a detailed and principled stand which reflects a well informed and humble attitude.’

Because you agree with it. There’s barely anything about the inhumanity towards Palestinian civilians in any of his lengthy posts. It’s not a balanced view. Any fool can see that. It’s ironic how you are both quick to jump on the flag wavers and protesters, of which I’m not one, but celebrate each others position. I find it an uncomfortable read. Just my opinion.

I have said more than once that it’s bleak and sad, precisely because Palestinians are dying, as well as Oct 7th. Please don’t slander. My point is that it’s complex and there are no easy solutions. Saying Israel has the right to defend itself and take out threats, like any other nation would (with far less objections) is my point. Hamas don’t care or want a ceasefire, they have repeatedly broken them and say they would do again and again. Is the only solution that Israel just accepts their civilians should be subjected to pogroms? People say they can and should be able to look after that, since Oct 7 came after a massive bit of negligence from Netanyahu’s government. Well, they can always do that and lock down the borders more. Then the same people accuse them of blockading Gaza. They can’t win.

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I could say the same to you and others about Israelis tbh.

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I wouldn’t have said that DM supports Hamas. There is nuance in where people’s positions are.

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I think it has been a civil discussion for the most part, at least when it comes to where I have stepped in. I realise not everyone will agree with me, but appreciate that it hasn’t been as hostile as this topic can get.

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I could say the same to you on this. Case in point being BBC, and especially Channel 4, who did so much to damage their own reputation by blindly believing what a Hamas government minister told them. All those moral warriors outraged about Al-Ahli fell rather silent when it looked like it was a PIJ missile.

As for it being retribution, of course it’s in response to October 7, but the idea that it’s aimed at killing civilians as a motive I find spurious, at present (I will get to this later). I don’t see why the IDF would call for civilians to leave if it was about that. International law makes it clear that military targets in civilian areas is not illegal, so any targeting of such is not beyond limits. Whether they should is debatable, but I don’t see how it’s any different to when US led forces did the same in Iraq and Syria against ISIS. That also involved urban warfare and civilian casualties. Yet there was far less uproar.

Meanwhile, Hamas have repeatedly said they would repeat October 7 until all Jews are removed from Israel and that they would annihilate all Jews, so I still don’t know what a ceasefire would mean. Would it mean allowing Hamas to just keep carrying out pogroms and Israel accepting its citizens are collateral damage? It’s just not workable. If a death cult had called for death to Brits, carried out a massacre, and said they’d do it continuously, the UK would react and did so against ISIS. Yet when Israel do it, it’s somehow worse.

As for Israel, people can say I am biased, but I just recognise its right to exist and defend itself. If that makes me biased, so be it. I am no fan of the regime, who are despicable and fascist inclined. You only have to look at the arming of settlers in the West Bank and recent comments about nuking Gaza to demonstrate that (hence my at present comment). Netanyahu removed the offender, but if the extremists in the coalition get in power I would expect to see less calls for civilians to leave and outright targeting of civilians deliberately. This isn’t me praising Netanyahu for removing the offender either. He is a populist moron who shunned centrists through dislike to work with the clowns and has done much damage of his own to Israel’s democracy through his own corruption. He was so dedicated to his culture war against Israeli liberals that he neglected his country’s safety, which was supposed to be his selling point. The West Bank settlers are appalling and wrong. However, many countries have such instances of wrongdoing and it doesn’t make their existence wrong or deny them the right to defend themselves against an attack. The Israeli liberals who oppose Netanyahu and his gang of corrupt crooks also tend to support Israel in this conflict, because they know what Hamas means. I will also say that I wished aid would get in faster, but Egypt is also to blame for that.

As for digging out social media interpretations, I don’t need to dig far. Speakers at the ‘peace marches’ openly call for the destruction of Israel and supporting the ‘resistance’ on Oct 7. People chant songs which Jews see as calling for their deaths*, say they support Hamas and wang on about gloablising the intifada. They’re not necessarily everyone on the march (I am sure many go through a desire for peace), but they represent a significant number who just get ignored and cause much of the division. I would say that is bias from the pro-Palestinian side and none of this will be solved until it is rectified.

"We saw what the resistance can do when they take the fight & their self determination in their own hands. This has been the biggest blow to Zionism that we've seen in our lifetimes…you know what the so called labour progressives think about it? they condemned it as terrorism!" pic.twitter.com/Rb3eFe2WmQ

— Harry's Place (@hurryupharry) November 4, 2023

*It’s funny how all lives matter is rightfully shunned as downplaying racism against black people, but we must have nuance when it comes to “from the river to the sea.”

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It’s not retribution. They aren’t deliberately targeting civilians, the problem is that civilians are often where Hamas locate themselves. Discussing whether they should still target these is a debating point, but it’s different from retribution. For instance, Israel opened up a civilian corridor the other day, which goes against the talk of them deliberately targeting civilians. Then Hamas allegedly launched artillery at the fleeing civilians. That doesn’t get much condemnation on social media though.

1 user thanked author for this post.

bartonscorpion

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I do wonder. In a cost of living crisis I think the majority aren’t wanting mean culture wars against the homeless, but ways of making it by more easily. I don’t think the perpetually angry and bigoted loud mouth these Tories like to make out is the representative of the salt of the Earth common man (making a charge against anyone critical as a snobbish, liberal elitist) is actually that representative.

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Just vile:

https://twitter.com/PolitlcsUK/status/1720546032700842008

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God forbid someone takes a dim view of those acting like berks.

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Blimey. The rain must have been Biblical in midweek to waterlog the pitch.

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Do I detect some sarcasm, Deerey?

I have voted for Iron Bru, along with Matt Slater in his section.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Deereyme66

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Maybe you should change your username to Homewego and enjoy better football and wins.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Awaywego

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It is a cruel world. It’s the nature of war and not different to US led action against ISIS for example, or WWII (and not just from the Axis).

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Shortly followed by one for them too!

1 user thanked author for this post.

Ferrite

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It will continue while Hamas still pose a threat and deliberately embed themselves among the public. They seemingly put an ammunition depot underneath a refugee camp, knowing what that would mean to the civilians they claim to care about. It’s all a mess, but the alternative is not easy. People say we should have a ceasefire, but how does that work? We had a ceasefire brokered by Egypt in 2021 and Hamas broke it on October 7, as they have done repeatedly previously. In these ceasefires they have done nothing to aid Palestinians, and have used all the aid and fuel they get to prepare for more battlings with Israel and attempts to kill Jews. If we have another ceasefire it will just prolong more of the same into the future, and lead to more instances like October 7 and Israeli reaction.

Hamas are not some rational group; they are a theocratic death cult in the mould of ISIS and I don’t see how there can be any long-lasting peace when there is a group who have a specific aim to destroy a nation and murder its inhabitants.

One thing we can do is make life easier for our citizens at home and these marches are getting out of hand, with calls to genocide being chanted (from “river to the sea” to “Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews, the army of Mohammed will return”) making British Jews feel too intimidated to enter their own cities. We even have anti-Semitic mobs out for Jews in airports elsewhere.

I have just read this article and find it a long, but valued read on the subject. I agree with the vast majority of it, including its condemnation of settler activity on the West Bank. The arming of them is a disgrace.

https://archive.ph/2023.10.28-061758/https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2023/10/decolonization-narrative-dangerous-and-false/675799/

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Or it could mean there is progress in dealing with Swann for the stadium.

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The chants aimed at the Bishop’s Stortford physio in the second half when their number 10 got injured.

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WonderGoals wrote:

Smith MOM for me. I thought he was sensational again and looks way above this level. Denton was superb though and thought Jenkins filled in for Clunan really well.

I was a bit nervy when I saw Clunan was out, but Jenkins had a good game. They all did. Just a cut above Bishop’s Stortford.

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I wonder what Michelle thought of that.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

Below the belt that awaywego. I get to games when I can but living over 100 miles away and restricted by financial, family and work pressures which inevitably mean putting family first, means I’m unable to get to anywhere near as many home games as I’d like to. Trust me, if I lived in town still, or much nearer, I’d be there every match, putting funds in from matchday tickets, spending on food and merchandise, encouraging as many friends and relatives to attend with me. It’s very frustrating not being able to do that more often, but hey, you carry on with your cheap shots mate if it tickles you.

Agreed. It’s hard for us out of towners. I have made a few this season, and I am going today, but money and other commitments make it hard to attend every home game, as I once did. I don’t claim to be the best fan and admire those who do go the extra mile to support the club. The most important thing is that the club is now united and we have owners we can trust.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Deereyme66

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Cliff Byrne’s Right Peg wrote:

Truly shocking what was allowed to happen here. The repercussions will be felt for many years I imagine.

The positive news from all this is Scunthorpe supporters look to be more galvanised than ever to help the club.

That energy needs to be channeled into productive means.

There’s no way the £1.2 million debt is all from Swann’s era. I hope if players have to leave to balance the books, the fans are understanding. It would be great if we can find a way to fund the squad, but I still classify survival as a success for this season.

2 users thanked author for this post.

Deereyme66, Cliff Byrne's Right Peg

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It’s all fake news, it’s a photoshop by trolls, according to Max Trump. Even though a quick search on the website reveals it.

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Stop trying to derail what was a fine thread. I hadn’t even payed attention to the time you posted it. I got back to my hotel 45 minutes ago and checked this site when I posted. Sometimes coincidences happen.

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I am sorry that I have been away for the past 2 days with work and not really checking the forum. I wasn’t just directing that solely at you either.

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Can we please keep this thread free from political prejudice?

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1 user thanked author for this post.

Northumbiron

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Game on! Pitch inspection passed.

[Author]

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