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Well, I am pleased NI’s desire for unity didn’t last long. Sounds like you want division.
As I said, I don’t recall Harness berating fans like others did who positioned themselves with Hilton. That was my issue, not solely working for the club. It’s why I and others didn’t critique her, Roj or the other directors either. Credit to Simon for putting this deal together, it would be nice for an apology, but the important thing is to learn from errors and not berate fans again like that.
If we want unity, we need movement from all sides. Including those who weren’t Hilton sceptics. Which means not more nonsense about what others have said from you or others.
Liverpool. The only club to have wrong decisions against them, seemingly.
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I agree, but it’s the first step, and actions to follow would demonstrate any lessons learned. You’re right that any apology has to be sincere and not include waffle about others being to blame.
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I don’t think there are many more than three paragraphs long. This is a forum, not twitter, where posts are limited.
I would hardly describe it as a witch hunt. It’s mostly people airing their opinion on the actions of Elliott, where most have not completely written him off as a person. My own piece has essentially boiled down to he has made errors and should apologise and rebuild trust. Hardly a damnation of him. I don’t think it’s beyond him or much to do, but without it there may be people aggrieved after how he acted with Hilton for reasons already described by several above.
We have had months of Hilton sceptics being slammed as club killers, wanting the club dead and more. All of which divisive rhetoric and not very much called out on the platforms they are common on. I find it a bit much to have a go at those aggrieved for mild comments about how Elliott needs to rebuild trust after siding with them and engaging in poor judgement himself. Same with Bell and especially Herbert. Such behaviour at the time was bound to lead to irritation and discontent to some degree. All I am saying is that this would be rebuilt if he makes very simple steps to change. Much like telling others to not say “I told you so”, which is a fair point, but asking others for similar contrition is like pulling teeth.
Jason Herbert isn’t a teenager, even if he acts like one. He’s a middle aged man and old enough to know better. A ban for life is strict, but there needs to be some consequences from his actions. I think prevention of him getting intertwined with the owner and board level is fair given his antics. There will be no unity if he carries on with it, and not because of those irritated by it.
I get the desire to unite. I have been happy to see such, people making apologies and people coming together. For the most part, I think that exists now. However, there has been a laser focus on sceptics behaving properly after months of endless accusations of wanting the club dead because of suspicions against Hilton, abuse, mockery and so forth. Even on here we had Pat O’Cake engaging in such behaviour. For the most part we will have to let go of such instances, but if they continue it will be division and it won’t be the fault of those calling it out. For people like Elliott, I would like to see an apology and actions which allow any rebuilding of trust if he wants to get involved, otherwise there will be justified disappointment and irritation. I don’t think it’s unfair to hope for that, nor behaving like the other side to want some of those most tied in to display behaviour which can build trust and unity.To reiterate, I am not referring to anyone on this forum here.
If we’re expecting unity to just be Hilton sceptics to modify behaviour and no-one else, including those who behaved badly (I am aware it’s not NI, JI etc who behaved badly), things might become fraught again.
For unity and division there needs to be movement from both sides. As much as I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Hilton sceptics to hold off on “I told you so”, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect some contrition from those who bound themselves to Hilton, for the sake of trust going forwards. By which I mean, those like Elliott, not most fans. Rebuilding for unity goes both ways and it isn’t just about Hilton sceptics refraining from going on about how they were right.
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I agree that for the majority of fans who were duped forgiveness and moving on is possible, given their connection to Hilton was minimal. I don’t think bans from the terraces are necessary. However, for others who associated themselves with Hilton, I would like to see some contrition. It’s not about being right, but making sure we learn from our mistakes and ensure we’re not here again for a 3rd time (presuming the takeover happens or with a phoenix club). It’s about rebuilding trust for those who made very bad errors of judgement.
I have no gripes with Elliott as a fan, but he did make errors in haranguing fans suspicious of Hilton, saying they should unite behind a man they had suspicions about, calling fans twerps and spreading rubbish about Hilton being attacked outside the Iron Bar. All the while, burners were abusing at this point and built upon his words. Elliott also appeared with Hilton at that fan’s forum, as a means by Hilton to shore his position, I believe. I have been told that Elliott regrets falling for it all, but it would be nice if we saw an apology for his error of judgement so we can at least hope he has learned from it all. I don’t think that’s too much to ask.
As for Herbert, he shows no sign of contrition, the club should have distanced from his antics as unofficial spokesman and I have no faith he’d change his ways. As much as it’s important we don’t get too bogged down with “I told you so’s” from Hilton sceptics, learning and modifications of behaviour cannot be all one way. Those who fully bought in, especially among those who tied themselves to Hilton, should also demonstrate a willingness to learn from this so trust can be earned. Action, by taking steps to demonstrate this (like making an apology), speaks louder than assurances.
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At the very least Elliott should make some serious apologies if he wants to get involved with the board room ever again. There will be anger and disgruntlement from some quarters without it, and with justification after his social media comments.
I also think Apollo is right in that he doesn’t have the money to help sustain the club.
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BREAKING: Understand the Scunthorpe United takeover deal is back ON and a deal could be concluded as early as lunchtime tomorrow #UTI
— IRON BRU (@ironbru_net) October 3, 2023
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https://twitter.com/SUFCOfficial/status/1709188560463470784
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All the best, Jimmy. It shows the measure of the man that he has put so much in when he has had this over his head too, and he wants to be back asap.
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You’re missing my point Sid – I’ll have another go – I’m not questioning the importance of what’s happening in NG, I’m questioning the sudden interest on here, when there are other humanitarian calamities worldwide which are far worse and involve far more civilian victims starving or meeting a brutal, bloody end – as you rightly say – yet they pass without comment, particularly from those who we might expect to show some Christian compassion. Why might this be?
We could say that about any topic brought up like this. If someone brought up the plight of the Rohingya, someone else could ask why they’re not talking about the Armenians, Uighurs or Yazidis. There is no evidence on here that anyone has selective compassion for such human rights issues, so I don’t really see the point in such speculation.
On a side note, there has been an increase in such disruption to the global geopolitical climate for a while now and I do wonder if it is because of a more isolationist USA allowing China and Russia to spread disruption. People bemoan US influence, and often with good reason, but the alternatives seem to be worse. This was Obama’s big mistake for me; he was decent on domestic policy, but his foreign policy was weak and let the wolves in. Biden has been ok, but could be a lot better, but the Republicans are likely to be a lot worse. Especially as they signal cutting back for support of Ukraine and talk of pointless conflict in Mexico.
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The actions from Scunny fans since the bannings has made me so proud to be an Iron fan. The fundraiser and this has shown so much good from the fanbase. We aren’t going to die without a fight.
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Awaywego, it wasn’t the attitude of everyone to Swann and Hilton which caused them to be unsuitable. It was their own actions.
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I think there is an issue with group think and tribalist views among aspects of progressivism. Such tribal blindness allows questionable ideas to be supported through refusing to consider other opinions and automatic assumptions that anyone who disagrees must be a conservative. I share a dislike of conservative ideas a lot of the time, find many aspects of conservatism worrying today, but I am wary of becoming too tribal in opposing anything a conservative says or blindly supporting anything because it’s liberal coded.
There is a critique for such matters. The issue is that many who oppose such progessive over-reach don’t just want to stop the silly stuff that is more contentious, but everything liberal. Wokeness doesn’t really mean much as a result, because it’s poorly defined and could mean different things to different people. It doesn’t just mean the hyper-sensitivity to racial matters (e.g. when you have someone go on about how cultural appropriation is a plague upon society, not cultures sharing in each other’s culture) or gender ideology for some; it means opposing gay rights, women’s rights etc. Of course there will be people who disagree with such, but I am uncomfortable with the idea that the latter should be lumped in with progressive over-reach. Any meaningful critique of ‘wokeness’ has lost impact for me, because I don’t trust those who oppose it and it often seems to be just demonising of socially liberal ideas.
I lose more interest when people throw buzz words like cultural Marxism around. Ignoring the problematic origins of such terms (I do not think bpg is using it for this purpose, but there are those that still do), it just seems to be jargon aimed to sound intellectually strong, but doesn’t have much meaning behind it for many. For one, many of the people slammed as ‘cultural Marxist’ are not Marxists. I wouldn’t be surprised if bpg sees me as a ‘cultural Marxist’, yet I have no yearning for Marxism or any kind of far-left ideology. I am no fan of communism and am fully aware of the totalitarianism associated with it. I do not think we are at risk of it now either.
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There are rumblings of something good happening, which is promising. However, the most important thing for me is the unity we have seen since the fundraiser. For a long part, the division among fans was one of the more upsetting things about the last few months. Not only did that fundraiser help raise money for the staff, but it made fans see past their differences and realise what matters. The club. Hilton’s attempt to divide the fanbase against each other to avoid blame looks to have failed. The only ones left are the die hards, like Herbert, who look more out of touch than ever. What a difference a week makes. Though I do think the banning orders of last week were what turned people round, and the fundraiser made the unity really pick up steam.
If the worst comes to the worst now, I feel we will have a critical mass of people united for the common good of having a team to support, even if it is a phoenix club. For my part I have joined the Trust and donated to the fundraiser. I am feeling more optimistic than I have done for some time.
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No, Gurny. This is an overreaction. The talk of agendas, no matter what the topic is, obscures that the more important thing is what is happening to others. Do some people harbour anti-Muslim prejudice? Yes, but that doesn’t hide the issue that Azeris have attacked Armenians and made them flee for safety. My main concern is with that right now on this issue. I wouldn’t support Azeris being attacked in the street, nor any other Muslim, based on this. However, I do not see why this should be the focus and suspicion made on anyone supporting Armenians.
I cannot speak for anyone else here, only myself, but I do not think my own concerns are from a Christian bias. I am not a Christian, even though you could say that I am from a culturally Christian background, given that my ancestors grew up with it. I don’t see why the identity of the victims should matter. Islam is capable of discrimination and bigotry like other faiths, political ideologies and creeds are. I also worry about the situation of the majority Muslim Kosovars right now at the hands of Christian Serbs. Yet if Serbia stages another invasion of Kosovo I don’t think we’ll see the same urges of caution against tarring all Christians and worries over some of the Islamist groups who would stage sympathy for the Kosovars (if they do – they’re not so vocal about the Uighurs). I have also raised the Rohingya above and Uighurs before. Both Muslim groups facing genocide and persecution. We shouldn’t let the fundamentalists seizing of a cause to betray our concern for the victims.
As for whether an outlet is pro-western and anti-Russian. Well, western media is a lot more diverse in thought than Russian and more acceptable than the other way round. At least western outlets aren’t making apologia for a brutal and murderous state that is beyond the limits of acceptability. Deservedly a pariah state. A state that has murdered thousands of innocent Muslims itself in Syria with indiscriminate bombing attacks on cities, under the justification that they are all terrorists.
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Some could be anonymous. I know Dolby has been very apologetic for his behaviour in the last week and has shared the gofundme.
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