[Siderite]

I am not bothered if you come on to be liked. Just don’t complain when you antagonise some (and, no, that does not mean I think every bit of antagonism thrown your way is justified) through misrepresenting arguments. If you misrepresent my argument, and refuse to look at yourself in the mirror for possibilities of lack of clarity or through not getting my point, don’t complain when I get annoyed in return.

I will try not to get too annoyed, but you have yourself behaved in a manner unbecoming at times.

[Siderite]

Truss gives a press conference and sods off before questioning. An embarrassing PM. At least Boris stayed to at least waffle about Peppa Pig!

[Siderite]

Alongside the above issues, I see ‘gay icon’, David Beckham, has decided to pocket the money for a state which criminalises homosexuality (up to a 7 years prison sentence!).

It was bad enough Russia got it, but at least that’s a football hub, unlike Qatar. The 2018 and 2022 decisions were an absolute shambles.

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Just Iron, TwoWrights

[Siderite]

And, because I suspect I will be misrepresented again, no, saying I find Toryism off putting (i.e. disagreeable) does not mean I think Tories are nasty. It just means I disagree with the stance of the party’s vision of the UK. Nothing more, and if that is unacceptable, learn to accept that people don’t think of your party as being what’s best for the UK.

We can respect other people without having to pretend their beliefs, political or religious, are what’s best (in our own opinion).

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Just Iron

[Siderite]

Unfortunately that hasn’t been my experience with you, as I have been consistently demonised and misrepresented, so my interpretation is less positive.

I do not disagree with you on the last sentence, and agree that people have called all Tories such like in the past on here.

I know I am not perfect, and can react to what I see as provocation with giving as good as I get, but I do apologise for going too far with some retaliation. I don’t mind disagreement, but I do mind having my words twisted and being assumed to be villainous because I am to the left of Reagan.

I can be forthright in my views, but so can you and many others. One thing I try to do is separate the belief from the believer, so if I am saying this and that a belief is wrong, silly, questionable or whatever, I do not cast such judgement on others. Well meaning people can be drawn to (what I see as) dangerous or bad ideas through good intentions. I do draw the line at respecting some beliefs. I have no respect for fascism, Islamism or tankie (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tankie) extremism and do not see why I should be friendly with that lot.

I disagree with Toryism, find a lot of it off putting in ideology, but I don’t right them off. Hell, my further left friends make out I am some sort of Tory, but that shows what that element of the left is like with how they view the Overton window.

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Just Iron

[Siderite]

There are elements I tend to agree with, but there’s no point saying that, because Bucks will only say agreeing with him is pathetic.

[Siderite]

What is pathetic about agreeing with your statement, saying that it’s too broad brush and that 64 was being hypocritical? I take it that you are too stupid to understand a simple point.

If I agree I am pathetic, if I disagree I am horrible. No winning. Well, it’s either that or you fail to understand and are desperate to portray me as suspect and disingenuous.

How come you clearly failed to understand, as your latest reply demonstrates?

[Siderite]

I was agreeing with you that this element was abuse, dimwit.

[Siderite]

It’s just irritating, because I was agreeing with him (and JI) that the racist morons vote Tory element is not good, but I wanted to clarify that I didn’t think the rest of the quote was abusive. Yet this gets taken exception to, and now anyone thinking he had a problem with that is a fool.

That the earlier part of the quote was not referred to was not obvious and you’d think a civil comment on this would not get the usual disrespect, especially when I was agreeing with the worst element of it.

[Siderite]

Siderite wrote:

If you are referring to the racist morons comment, I tend to agree, since it’s too broad brush and made by someone who has glossed over Labour anti-Semitism.

To avoid the predictable gaslighting, here was my comment spelling out that I agreed with your comment on this. You then took exception because I didn’t say the rest of it was nasty. Now, of course, I am an idiot if I thought this.

This is either you failing to understand my simple point or you are gaslighting. Which is it?

[Siderite]

I didn’t say you were referring to terrible and crooked, because you didn’t say that. I made it quite clear to the response that I didn’t think that the racist morons comment was acceptable. You then responded, snidely, that I was breaking it down into acceptable chunks, as if I was trying to water down the comment. You then said my argument that the other bits (i.e. abominable or the current Tory government is full of con men) is not abuse to be cobblers. Now, of course, you never said that. It’s not my fault if you were unclear or couldn’t understand my point, eh? However, because you’re never wrong, I don’t expect any kind of backing down here, just more comments aimed at me, while justifying it because others have done the same to him. It’s a bit tedious and hypocritical.

I am trying to be balanced and reasonable, but this is not good enough, because it doesn’t fit in perfectly with how you want me to argue. And, of course, out come the personal insults against me. However, I am sure that’s ok, because others have insulted you. Yawn.

[Siderite]

I am really fed up of making a civil disagreement and only getting snide dismissals in return from someone who frequently complains about how others react. It’s patronising towards me, when I am trying to be as civil as possible. I could not care less about others supporting me, but it has to be some grand conspiracy, because God forbid me disagreeing with you.

[Siderite]

Ok PC brigade. I ask again. If someone thinks a party is crooked and terrible, what acceptable terms can we use to avoid offence from the woke? People are free to find political parties horrible. I couldn’t care less if alcazar or someone says Labour is abominable. If you’re offended by this, grow a thicker skin. I am bored of people seeking offence for minor opinions, when they aren’t insulting them specifically, because of hurt feelings.

Anyone who disagrees with you is suspect and disingenuous. Yawn.

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TwoWrights

[Siderite]

It wasn’t a matter of breaking into acceptable chunks, it was to highlight that some of it is quite tame and not deserving to be grouped with a more questionable comment. This constant looking for bad faith interpretations for people who disagree with you is quite tiring.

If people think that a government is terrible and crooked, what language is acceptable? Should people really have to modify language so drastically for minimal offence? I really doubt anyone on here is offended by calling members of this government con men or the government abominable. It targets no-one on here. I see language of similar severity used against Labour. It may have been different if 64 had called all Tories, voters alike, abominable or con artists, but he specifically referred to the government. You are not your beliefs or the party you support. Insulting a government is not insulting you. If anyone thinks it is, they should grow a thicker skin, and get over it. It’s PC to expect people not to call out such, in accordance with their beliefs.

[Siderite]

Bucksiron wrote:

Not true, Siderite. I never believe forecasts and just because I’ve quoted it doesn’t mean I think it’s correct.

That was not made clear really, and it was made to look like an endorsement, while ignoring the IMF saying they think growth will reduce because of the plan.

The problem with trying to dismiss these forecasts, is that you’re putting forward predictions yourself, and I am highly sceptical of them, given everything, so I am critical of the government’s actions. Whether that makes me a ‘predictable suspect’ for not blindly following Tory rhetoric, I don’t know, but I will continue to think for myself (while being open to being wrong).

[Siderite]

In fact, the IMF have warned of a sharp reduction in growth today, so the idea they back this plan is fanciful to say the least.

The idea that the mini-budget has nothing to do with that, when the gilts rose (and have risen again) catastrophically, causing the BoE to intervene 3 times, only after that is a bit much.

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Deereyme66

[Siderite]

If you are referring to the racist morons comment, I tend to agree, since it’s too broad brush and made by someone who has glossed over Labour anti-Semitism.

However, I couldn’t give a fig about calling a government abominable or full of con men/women because it may hurt supporters’ feelings. The government isn’t them and if we’re to refrain from course language aimed at governments, then we’re giving into political correctness.

[Siderite]

Interesting how forecasts are definitely correct when it suits some, but dismissible when it’s the other way round.

I am rather sceptical that the mini-budget has anything to do with any current growth outcome. The IMF are predicting less growth in 2023, lower than many of those in this same figure. However, I am sure this can be just dismissed, because reasons, as it always is when it doesn’t suit the agenda.

[Siderite]

An ‘evolutionary worldview’ makes as little sense as a ‘gravity worldview’ or a ‘plate tectonics worldview.’ It is a scientific theory and no moral code comes from it, because it is an explanation as to how animals have changed through time. Your premise is flawed from the start.

At least you’re moving this elsewhere now, after triggering a reaction (I believe deliberately) on a thread where it is most unbecoming.

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Deereyme66

[Siderite]

What about Labour?

https://twitter.com/unionlib/status/1579818856897736704

Can’t trust it, Private Eye is a Marxist mag. :-P

[Siderite]

Way to hijack a thread about the injustices brought on by one religion, when it’s state sanctioned, with this pap.

[Siderite]

To emphasise this, how pathetic would it be for Labour supporters to say the Tories can’t complain about Corbyn anti-Semitism, because of their handling of the Windrush scandal, and the racism involved? You have admitted that an older guard of Tories have a racism problem, so using this logic of hypocrisy, we can just dismiss Labour anti-Semitism concerns.

We shouldn’t, because problems on one side do not justify problems on the other. There is no way we can improve things if we just shrug our shoulders and say “it’s fine, the others do it.”

[Siderite]

Disagree all you want, but the economy improved after black Wednesday,but Major still lost afterwards, with that being a pivotal moment of confidence loss. The charts of approval rating show every PM declining in approval rating. Truss is already lower than every former PM. It would take a brave person to pin hopes on hypothetical and rare rises in popularity.

The economic argument failed in 2016 for the US election and Brexit referendum.

[Siderite]

No it isn’t. If we all spent time pointing out hypocrisies of the other side no criticism would be possible. There’s a reason guilty parties say “look over there, they’re hypocrites.” It’s to deflect.

[Siderite]

Aye, 2011 Arab Spring protests never made headline news, because the west had cordial relations with some of the countries (e.g. Egypt).

[Siderite]

Both Rory and Dewhurst were and are poor. We haven’t had a good goalie since 2018, yet still we make the same mistakes.

1 user thanked author for this post.

Awaywego

[Siderite]

An interesting article, and not from a left wing source or journalist before it can be dismissed as that, suggesting it is unlikely approval ratings for Truss will recover, regardless of any economic upturn:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/can-truss-ever-repair-the-damage-of-her-first-four-weeks-

There are elements I disagree with, but it’s a worthwhile piece, nevertheless.

[Siderite]

lol

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With the amount of goals we’re scoring and conceding I find it hard to compare it to Wilcox.

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Criticising the Tories for shadiness doesn’t inherently mean the left are angels. I think it’s best in arguments to not point the finger at another side, whoever it may be, because that reeks of whataboutery and diverting the point.

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Heath

[Author]

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