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Aye, and the planet has seen several mass extinctions (five major – i.e. greater than 50% species extinct), all due to climate change, in that time. While life finds a way, not all does, and it’s left for the survivors to fill the niche left by the mass extinction. The planet finds an equilibrium after a while, and will do with current life on the planet after current climate change, but many species may not and that might include ourselves or a large number of ourselves. At the very least conditions may life to become more strained with things like crop failure, and an associated increase in migration, as we are witnessing now.

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Haweswater?

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Where has JI revealed himself to be Catholic? I always assumed he is Protestant.

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Just Iron

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Don’t forget it was all part of Project Fear, which has all been proven to be false, according to some Brexiters. Either that or Brexit was never really about that, and they accepted the economic shortcomings for sovereignty. Which would be a fine argument if the Brexit campaign didn’t run on how everything like this would be so much better off out of the EU.

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I don’t think Pat or anyone on this forum has claimed that catering problems are why the club has imploded.

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Pat O'Cake

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Greylag and NI are correct with Florida. Easier than I thought. I assumed some might have been swayed by the flat mid-Western states like Nebraska, Iowa or Kansas.

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In one! California, correct.

Slightly different question. Which state has the lowest high point (i.e. the state which has its highest point at the lowest elevation when compared with other State’s high points)?

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Which US state has the lowest point in the USA?

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I wonder what UTI99 would say to defend him against the ‘unjust criticism’ from fans on this. Our abuse probably drove him to gamble so much, in his eyes.

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Deereyme66

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Also, I am struggling to see how Biden’s Green New deal can be blamed for rising prices when it didn’t pass through Congress until August. Prices were already rising before then, so I would say other factors predominate. A lot of it global, since energy prices are driven by the highest price of a source. Renewables are quite cheap, but gas isn’t, ensuring the cost stays high, while Europe demands more from the USA now Russia is out of access.

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All this talking of values makes me think of starting a thread on personal values, and positions, so people can clearly show what they represent. Then I think this sounds all a bit self-indulgent. I probably spend too much time thinking about how the world should be based on my own moral values.

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I wasn’t making any barbed comments. Though, I do think Putin’s massive mishap with Ukraine displayed his own idiocy, and can be labelled as such due to the epic disaster it put on his own country and the world. A huge backfire which hasn’t gone to plan.

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Just Iron

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Anyone who puts Biden in the same planet as Putin needs examining. One’s a democratically elected leader who respects the system, the other is an ethnonationalist, essentially fascist autocrat responsible for mass murder of civilians.

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Also, that should be Capitol! Not been my day!

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Sorry, genuine typo. I meant 2/5s, not 3/5s.

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I think a big part of your post falls down in that I haven’t said all. I have said a large chunk. You can dress it up how you like, but the conspiracist right make up a large amount when it comes to polls on this. At least 3/5s or something supported the Capital storming, and we’re supposed to brush this aside and ignore it for unity, while they do nothing in return to promote reconciliation? Not only that many of the Republican politicans back them up on this, so it is clearly ingrained in the party.

On the other hand, ask any antifa what they think of Joe Biden and what do you think they’ll say? They will say he’s a neoliberal centrist who isn’t good and probably as bad as Trump. So, I’d hardly say there’s an equivalence.

I made it clear I have problems with aspects of the left. That should be evident, including a lot of those who support BLM and come up with barmy ideas. However, they are not Joe Biden, and as I said, if anyone bothers to read what they think and converse with them it’s clear they hate Biden as much as Trump fans. However, the key is the nutty lefties like this aren’t the ones in charge, unlike the Republicans, and I am not convinced their numbers are as strong. Which is why the Republicans bother me a lot more. Wake me up when Democrats make outright assaults on democracy and when the Squad aren’t sniping from the sidelines. Pelosi, Biden et al. are not these and are well within democratic norms. Just as Bush mostly was, Reagan, Eisenhower and co. The current Republicans aren’t that though and will yap about election rigging and will gerrymander to suit them. Their responses in 2020 showed their commitment to democracy, and barring a few, many showed their true colours.

It’s why I hate both sidesism. Of course there are problems with both sides, but all too often those arguing this make out it’s identical on both, and it always seems to downplay right wing authoritarianism and radicalism in favour of focusing on left wing. Balance isn’t about saying both sides are as bad as each other, because that’s not always the case.

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I didn’t mean that you were against them as people. I just meant you are more against the principle and institution than I am. :-)

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Northumbiron

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I am probably more ambivalent about the monarchy than you, NI (I am not pro, but am probably more of a half-arsed republican), but I agree with it being needless distraction from both sides.

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They did say they were going to the States for a more private life. This doesn’t seem to be that.

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Gurnelista wrote:

3) Afghanistan withdrawal? Well, the Yanks went in ostensibly for counter-terrorism purposes, not to hang around and protect Christians. Do you really think the USA should be invading countries around the world to protect followers of Jesus?

I don’t think this is really fair. It’s not just Christians suffering in Afghanistan and the result of the withdrawal has been terrible for those, which include Shia’a, gays, women and people who worked with the NATO troops, alongside Christians. I don’t think JI was saying human rights only matters for Christians, even if he could have expanded on the list of victims of the Taliban. The event wasn’t a positive for the Afghan people and that is something which lies at the feet of those responsible, which includes Biden, even if Trump started the process.

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What’s the point of the Trust if they were to only ever act on outsiders’ suggestions? As voice of the fans they should be doing something to represent us in our time of need. It would be a bit ridiculous to set up something which can be used as an outlet for things like this then palm off responsibility to non-members for any perceived lethargy.

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North Lincolnshire Irons, Awaywego, SODIron

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You misunderstand me. I do not think all the problems lie on one side of the divide. I am not keen on the Squad and many like them, who also worry me. I am not keen on some of the identity politics stuff. However, they are not at the moment in complete control. The problem is that the intolerant and rigid fundamentalists are in power within the Republicans. Therefore, they are currently the greater threat to democracy.

The problem when you ‘both sides’ it is that we’re left with comparing smaller fry like Clinton’s emails and Trump abusing all powers and privileges and him, with many others, trying to overturn election results based on nothing. Clinton made silly comments about not conceding, but did, which is far less than what the Republicans did. Yet we’re supposed to see an equivalence? I don’t think so.

Ultimately I do not think it’s healthy for the USA to be so polarised, but a large chunk of that issue comes from the fact that so many Republicans have gone into conspiracies (more and more anti-Semitic too, par the course for conspiracies) and rigid authoritarian thinking, where they want it all their own way. I do not know how I am supposed to react but disdain. Sure, I agree with trying to win people over, but nodding along with what passes as mainstream Republican ideology these days? Not a chance and that shouldn’t be pandered to. Many would only accept pandering to.

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And it took a Hull fan to first mention him on this thread! :-)

Anyway, I hope there are no hard feelings, JI. I may appear blunt, maybe, but I feel like I owe others some honesty. I don’t want to be two faced, I do try and separate the belief from the believer, and I judge on a case to case basis with individuals.

Feel free to open up about bpg, if you do so wish. His sniping at you is rather tedious.

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Iron-awe, Just Iron, TwoWrights

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Many Republicans are simply not interested in unity. Unity isn’t just about the Democrats doing whatever to suit Republicans, and even that wouldn’t be good enough for them. We forever hear about what Democrats need to do to win over Republican voters, but never the other way round. Unity for many Republicans mean do as they want otherwise they’ll play the victim and cry about being ignored, and that’s not going to happen, nor should it. The world doesn’t revolve around them and if they cannot compromise and accept that then it’s not anyone else’s problem.

I mean Tucker Carlson gets 5.2 million viewers, largely Republican, and he peddles Great Replacement crap. Am I supposed to just ignore this and say such views should be just accepted and not criticised for unity, because it might hurt their feelings? No, that’s silly. It wouldn’t wash with Corbynites, it doesn’t wash here.

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I agree, but the decision was made in 2021. It would be like listing Farage as an idiot of the year for his campaign during the Brexit referendum because we still have consequences.

It’s clear that he wasn’t referring to all who voted Republican. However, my view is that there is too large a chunk who are ok with such malicious behaviour. Polls consistently show it. I don’t see why I should be politically correct and spare such feelings, because their feelings are precious. Too many were happy with a misogynistic and disabled bashing president and worldview, taking on damaging conspiracies (I mean, hundreds did storm the Capital building and many sympathised). I don’t see why I or Biden should pander to such nonsense because it might hurt feelings (can’t be having that). Unity takes two and the statement was made to show he was willing, so long as the Republicans act in kind. Given their response has been to field more idiots yapping about election rigging and they engage in malicious stunts like jetting migrants off to the north-east, I don’t see it as some big vice not to indulge such silliness. If the Republicans want to radicalise themselves it’s not Biden’s job to pat them on the back to make themselves feel better. Nor is it mine to say their ideas aren’t malicious or dumb. Of course he should do what he sees fit to suit everyone, I am not talking about excluding people from societal benefits or anything remotely like that, but many Republicans would never be happy with a Democrat no matter what. Their extreme conspiracies and demonisation shows that. I don’t know how Biden could possibly unite such people, and they’re not a small chunk of the Republican base either.

If anyone who thinks the likes of DeSantis, Boebert, Cruz and co would genuinely compromise and not act so maliciously, then I have a bridge to sell. We have had years of Republican demonising of Democrats and refusing to work with them, even when they agree (Mitch McConnell was famous for it under Obama). When the Democrats grow tired of such games all of a sudden they cry foul.

As for the analogy. Both a sizeable chunk of Corbynites and Republicans have supported some abhorrent views and conspiracies. I don’t see why I should view one group differently than the other because it might make supporters uncomfortable. People are not their beliefs, I try my best to separate the two when dealing with people, but if people want to get themselves behind silly conspiracies which damage democratic norms and harm others then they can’t escape negative opinions. If people actively engage and excuse the misogyny, as many did and what such deplorable comments was aimed at, then it’s a bit snowflakey to cry about hurt feelings from such.

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I agree that Afghanistan was a mess, but that was 2021. Also, many of the right don’t want unity. They want to rant about how Democrats are evil child grooming paedos operating via pizza joints and rig elections. All unsubstantiated. However, Democrats are forever expected to placate such, while nothing expected in return. I am sorry, but if a good chunk of the American right want to do that and pal around with conspiracy theorists, some Holocaust deniers, they will face a negative reaction. Just as the anti-Semite apologetic Corbynites would. Hurt feelings from being seen as deplorable be damned.

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While the US economy isn’t great, it hasn’t fared asbadly as some. Though, given his support of Ukraine I cannot give him much stick. It’s more than many across the aisle would have do e, and that would have been a catastrophe.

Mangling your leadership so badly that 70000 soldiers die for nothing really takes the cake for malice and stupidity.

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It really doesn’t come across that way when you have spent your time on here sniping at others.

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