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That’s not what I said before your last quote.

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Now quote the bit before. I definitely recall you being so engaged in being careful in Tory corruption prior to investigation.

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Where did I say it was done and dusted?

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He may be, but it looks bad and it’s amusing to see the SNP riddled with corruption after they made out Tory corruption was why they needed independence. Turns out they’re just as bad.

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While it’s amusing seeing those decrying others as snowflakes get upset and outraged over everything, what is the gotcha here? Travis opposes a trans person on an advert, but is acting feminine?

Acting feminine doesn’t make you a woman, so where is the hypocrisy? Trans women claim to be women, Travis does not. Seeing Travis behave like a woman as a gotcha for this treats it as if women are a bunch of regressive and sexist stereotypes.

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The same could have been said about Corbyn’s Labour for alienating 60% of the country, but that was the fault of ‘smears’ and us for not putting our faith in Saint Jeremy.

Given the current outlook I doubt Labour ate losing sweat over alienating the comparative handful who want some Corbynite utopian vision.

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You implied that Palestinians understandably turn to Hamas due to Israeli action. I was countering that with the supposition that Israelis would take a hardline stance against Hamas in a similar manner, so this can’t really be used as an excuse. It just continues the cycle of violence.

Israel has a lot of problems, especially right now with Netanyahu (solidarity with the protests), but the idea that Hamas crimes can be excused as a reaction to Israel is nonsense, as is Israel as an apartheid rogue state. Palestinians have fewer voting rights in Gaza than Israel. Hamas rules with an iron grip and imprison dissidents; they torture them too. They control women and kill gays. This would still happen if Israel didn’t exist.

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Just Iron

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If you think anti-Semitism is purely a reaction to Israel then I have a bridge to sell. Israelis would say their actions are a reaction to Hamas, whose beliefs are to wipe Jews from Israel.

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I don’t support a state attacking Muslims, I am just not blind to the nature of Hamas and those who apologise for such. There is plenty to criticise about Israel, but many take it beyond criticism to conspiracies, hyperbole and Jew hate.

I apologise for overinterpretation; I read it in a tone where arms supply to Ukraine is bad.

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64 wrote:

Siderite wrote:

I dread to think what will happen to Ukraine if the Republicans win in 2024.

I think you and I both know,US and UK arms firm lobbies will ensure continued support,they don’t do it for free

Ha, because that has worked with Hungary. I also like the implicit horror at arms dealers lobbying to what would be a good outcome given the situation. Though I am sure your vision of the left, which is all about kindness, involves the kindness of having Ukrainians at the mercy of death and destruction from Russia.

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MK Iron wrote:

Wrexham v Notts County not on NLTV. It’s on BT Sport. Not a bad call though for Monday afternoon.

Getting beyond embarrassing watching our shower and the glee from arsehole Oldham fans is probably more than I can bear.

What have Oldham fans done to you? :-)

Most I have seen have been sympathetic to our struggles.

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64 wrote:

Iron Age wrote:

One worrying aspect is the support for Putin from the far right of conservative political parties, not so much here but certainly in America and other countries. Very similar to their support for Hitler pre war. Of course there was even support for Hitler here pre war.

don’t be ridiculous, do you know how many died in that war,?

I fail to see how the death toll contradicts IA’s point. There are many right wingers in the US who do support Putin, and many supported Hitler at the time. We all like to think we’d stand against tyranny, but many have their excuses for not opposing Russia.

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In one thread I have been made out to be a Labour tribalist and anti-Labour by two different people. Such is life for the ‘enlightened centrist’ :-)

As for voting Labour, I have voted Labour for the majority of my life to date. Though, if they cross red lines I won’t do. I am of Labour values, but not a tribalist.

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I agree with highlighting Tory failures in crime, but I am uncomfortable with the nastiness against Sunak and populist nature of it.

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If you think that’s deflection, you need to think about it more. I was ruling out any kind of defense for this because of previous Tory action. In other words, it doesn’t matter what the Tories have done, this is just unacceptable. I am not saying “ummm, yeah, but what about the Tories?”

My opinions have never been intentionally partisan pro-Labour, as can be seen from my talk of Corbyn. I didn’t vote Labour at the last election because of my problems with the party. I still have problems with it now over various things (e.g. gender laws). I am often wrong, including my past support for a second referendum, so I don’t think I am averse to self-reflection.

However, I expect this to fall on deaf ears, because I am to the left of Reagan, so expecting you to not try and find a gotcha is maybe a bit much.

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Given that Trump’s moronic speeches are some of the worst I can think of, yes.

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Heath

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Just Iron wrote:

Thanks for bothering to reflect on this, Sidey. ( And also for making the effort to get past the closure of our discussion to offer the above. Nor sure why that closure happened.) One problem is that online discussion cuts off important aspects of communication eg body language, facial expression, tone etc Also makes for more confusion since immediate clarification isn’t possible before we formulate a response. We sure are on different pages re the laptop … but the truth isn’t going to be evident for either of us some time I think. Maybe we will re visit this in the future?
On the Nazi issue it seems to be ironic really that we have somehow clashed when you are actually, in my view, the most clearsighted on the issue of the Jews and Israel. Ah well.

I suspect it was closed because moderators thought it was getting too heated.

I can agree to disagree, and will change my mind if something more substantial crops up. The current evidence is very little for me, and I think there was a reason even right wing outlets like Fox News wouldn’t touch it with a barge pole. Right now I think of it as Benghazi, pizzagate, Obama the Kenyan and all these other silly things Republicans have got worked up about, but aren’t grounded in much or reality. A lot of it quite worrying for democratic norms. Anyway, there will be a wait and see, but I don’t think there’s any real sign of concern coming.

It was your commitment to the Jews which made me double back when that analogy was made. I don’t think there’s any escape from the analogy and what people think of with that quote. People think of it not so much as hushing a political opponent, but sending whole swathes of society to concentration camps and extermination. I don’t think it is reasonable to compare the Trump case to that at all.

Anyway, I will leave it at that, as I have sent bpg off a bit. :-)

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Just Iron

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I dread to think what will happen to Ukraine if the Republicans win in 2024.

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And you said not far off me being like Gurney’s description of you being dim.

I wasn’t calling you pompous for disagreeing; more straw manning. I was calling you pompous for “expecting better of me” and your recent outburst about engaging. In which case, how can I engage with you when you yourself misinterpret what I say to make out I am being something I am not?

You are trying to portray yourself as measured, but cannot even comprehend how you are just misrepresenting me at every opportunity. Which is not fair and just an attempt to make out I am being unreasonable. If that’s your argument I flip it back to you and am happy for you to stay in your own echo chamber where all the ‘very reasonable’ people all think that spurious conspiracies are some measured point.

I may not be perfect, I perhaps should have said you are being unmeasured on this when I first said it, but neither are you. Your tone and expressions of how you expect better than me were what prompted the pompous accusation, not disagreement. I have responded in turn, because people lecturing others when displaying poor behaviour is a bugbear of mine and I will call it out so far as I see fit. However, I am sure this will fall on deaf ears and I will get more smug condescension.

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Heath

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I also never said that people going on conspiracy spheres are doing so because of dimness or not as part of some quest for truth. In fact I think the quest for truth, in a misguided fashion drives conspiracy theories, and those who believe in them and such material. I think to interpret my argument as you have done is not measured or a fair analysis of my view. So when it comes to intolerance of reaction I again suggest a mirror, because you have extrapolated something I didn’t say through a prejudice.

As for my own ‘totalitarianism’ I am not calling for silencing of such nonsense, so long as nothing libellous or slanderous is said. It’s not totalitarian to label the nature of such claims, though. Expecting me to not give my opinion on what it is would be totalitarian.

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I never said you were dim. I am just stating that the conclusions over the evident nature over the Joe Biden involvement in the laptop case is just not there outside of conspiracy spheres.

Your pleading to be more measured means to be politically correct, since there’s no way round it. You have set yourself up as judgement of reasoned natures, yet your arguments here are anything bur. Instead of pompously looking down on myself, maybe look at yourself in the mirror. Because anyone using a Niemöller quote about genocide for this, and buying into dubious narratives about Hunter’s laptop are not being so.

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Just Iron wrote:

Wrong.

Well, there’s me convinced. However, I am sure there’s some loopy Breitbart style article out to correct me from a ‘very measured’ source.

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Speaking about the battle for America, the news coming out from Florida of censoring people (from corporations to people who created memes) critical of DeSantis is worrying. It’s not just Trump who’s got an authoritarian mindset in the Republicans. It’s worrying that the next president could be one of these two corrupt and anti-democratic politicians.

The party of Lincoln, the Bull Moose and Eisenhower is far gone.

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Ummm, the interview wasn’t conducted by the Iron Bru podcast, so it wasn’t Brad involved here. This was with the Iron Army podcast, which didn’t exist under Swann’s tenure.

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Drain the swamp, unless it ends up being a Republican being drained, at which point it’s a political purge.

JI – I still think that quote invokes a comparison to the Nazis, which is not fair. Anyway, I don’t think it’s accurate. “First they came for the a person accused of fraudulent behaviour, and I did not speak out, because criminal trials into the allegedly fraudulent happens in any healthy justice system.”

Regardless of it being a Nazi analogy or not, it is comparing someone facing criminal trials to escalation to genocide and I find that to be crass.

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Indeed. Anyone striving for reality could not come to the conclusion that there is any hint of wrongdoing by Joe Biden from that as of now. Outside of frenzied conspiracy spheres.

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I don’t think I have made my disdain for conspiratorial and Trumpian thinking a secret. I try to be as measured as possible, but if someone presents me with damaging rhetoric about a cabal or group of any kind out to get someone I am going to argue against it. Like I say, turning a blind eye to corruption allows authoritarianism to ferment. This isn’t the case of a non-believer being punished, as with Stalin, but a legal case against someone for how they allegedly mishandled funds in politics. And it will possibly be more, as IA has said. To frame this as a political purge is not a measured opinion, from my standpoint. There is no other way about it, and I doubt Trump fans would ever accept charges against Trump, frankly no matter how justified. It’s like with Corbyn; anything against them has to be from an elite out to get them. None of it has much basis, but it’s corrosive to democracy to undermine the state based on conspiracies. There’s a reason why hard leftists and rightists use this tactic. OK, you didn’t say nefarious elite, ad verbatim, but it was the gist I got to a degree.

I would also probably say you are not being measured or balanced in this instance if I could type that again. I appreciate people have different views, and elsewhere there has been good debate, but I cannot go against my own interpretation of the discussions here. I cannot view the Nazi analogy to be measured, and there is good reason why Lineker (spelled correctly, I made the effort) got criticised, even if it shouldn’t have meant censorship. Same with you; I am not reporting posts or calling for bans.

I just agree to disagree.

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Conspiracies are a two way street, yet I have alleged none. You ramble about some nefarious elite, without basis, and expect me to see you as measured and moderate. I don’t think you are being, sorry to say.

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Holding Donald Trump to account does not equal desperation to get at him. I did read it and don’t agree, since you crassly include this as a comparison. However, those who call for a politician to be above the law, and your excuses don’t convince, aren’t demonstrating anything but an agenda to me. It’s this which threatens US democracy. Many of the Republicans automatically see any attempt to be held to legal account as being targeted. In their world, there will be several excuses as to why they should never face consequences for corruption.

All your arguments just boil down to Trump being political

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