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If only Israel accepted that a genocidal death cult should be able to slaughter its citizens at whim.

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It doesn’t convince.

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I said yesterday about a digital detox. After a night’s sleep I have thought about it and realised it’s ok not to get so consumed by major events. I realise I am opinionated, and will apologise for banging on with my soapbox on the Israel-Palestine issue. I won’t be commenting in that now for a while. For the sake of everyone else and my own peace of mind; it’s not good to get consumed.

So, in a lighter tone, here is a video. Didn’t realise we were a reference:

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I didn’t fully agree with Heath’s sentiment earlier in the thread, since the debate was then productive, but this is just proselytising and I echo his sentiments now. It’s just banging on and rather tedious.

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It’s a good job all the creatures bew how to swim back to their previous home continents after the flood. All marsupials knew to swim back to Australia. I am also impressed that Noah knew to pick them up from a continent not yet known about in the middle east. Shame he didn’t pass on the knowledge of his discoveries to his descendents.

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Northumbiron

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Who do I believe? My own understanding of evolution, the many scientists (some of how believe in God) who understand evolution or people like bpg and creationists who time and time again fail to understand evolution? Whenever I have come across creationist arguments it’s the same fallacious nonsense about gaps in the fossil record. I suspect the ‘undeniable proof’ of a creator will remain undeclared as it has been for centuries.

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I am pleased you have now clarified it, as it wasn’t above, since I assumed it was a response to what Israel should do. I don’t think Hamas will operate like that, so a ceasefire will only be short lived if there is one and I still don’t know what demands can be conceded to with Hamas; we surely can’t expect Israel to make concessions to terror. It would be an invitation to do it again to get the same result and we wouldn’t countenance it in that situation.

Anyway, I think I am going to do a JI and do a detox. I am not the victim in this, I know, the Palestinians and Israelis are. However, it’s just so miserable and I wish it could just end. I do understand why you, Iron-Awe etc think along such lines and do not think it’s for any reason besides caring. I am just trying to say it’s messier and more complex than presented. No civilian deaths can be described as good. This is the nature of war, but if Hamas are going to start it they are going to get the blame for it from me, much as with Germany in WWII, Germany and Serbia in WWI, UK with the Opium wars etc. It won’t end until conditions are met and I would like to see more public and international pressure on Hamas after a pogrom. In the long term, Hamas needs to be discredited, otherwise we won’t have peace. People can talk about the history, but ultimately, it’s Islamism which is causing the greatest threat to it in the region as a whole (yes, I agree that settlers need to stop too).

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Some respite. Great work from the board.

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SODIron

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And if that fails? How many concessions should Israel make to genocidal terrorists? Would we accept that? How can there be a ceasefire if Hamas are going to still launch missiles and no-one demands them to stop? Why is it only Israel who need to respond to demands?

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I do agree, DM. It’s bad and it does make me sad for all involved. I realise my opinion on here is more pro-Israel than most, but I am trying to put forward that it’s more complex than that. I have made no claims about how successful the war has been for Israel yet, my point is more about that conflict is inevitable after it was initiated by Hamas. Any ceasefire without the causes of the conflict being addressed (e.g. hostage release) is fruitless, and it’s not just on Israel to call such. Hamas should do their bit in releasing hostages, and other nations with links could tell them the game is up. They want to play around as Nazis, they should deal with some repercussions. Will bombing release the hostages? I don’t know, but it might destroy Hamas infrastructure and cause them to give up and release the hostages. The other options are diplomacy, while Israeli citizens are tortured, and this could well take years, leading to anger about citizens being mistreated and eventual conflict anyway. Then there’s do nothing and let the hostages rot, which is unpalatable.

It’s not like Hamas, PIJ or Iran give one damn about Palestinian life. Yesterday’s actions show that, and the eagerness of some media and others to immediately take the word of a Hamas minister shows a bias in determining what’s causing the issues. More investigators from outside have got involved and given their interpretations of it being a failed missile incident:

Conclusion:

A missile launched by a Palestinian group exploded mid-air (Reason unknown) and one piece fell on the hospital causing an explosion.

The geolocation and timing of the footage is conclusive.

More information will be added to this thread.

11/X pic.twitter.com/jDJn4OZJLO

— GeoConfirmed (@GeoConfirmed) October 17, 2023

We all know war is bad, it’s a cliche. Yet sometimes war is inevitable, and always will be a massive risk after what happened over a week ago. I hope that Biden’s visit sorts out aid arrangements for water, food and medicine, because that is something I think we can all agree needs to happen. Israel needs to stop preventing that, I definitely agree. They need to make it reach those who need it, because the UN have already said that Hamas have been intentionally taking and refusing to give out medical supplies. Though, I think it’s important to remember the war’s context, and that means putting pressure on Hamas to do what is needed. WWII is regarded as a just war and outside of the far-left (initially) and far-right, no-one demanded we made ceasefire with Germany after they invaded Poland for the sake of civilian casualties. Despite WWII’s understandable nature there were still civilian atrocities from the Allies. These include:

Soviet mass rape – Potentially over 2,000,000 German, Austrian, Hungarian, Polish and Yugoslavian women raped by the Red Army’s liberation.

UK/American/French rape – Potentially 200,000 German women raped by American troops, potentially 45,000 women raped by British troops and 50,000 by French troops.

Allied bombings of Axis powers – 395,000-635,000 German civilians killed by Allied bombings in Hamburg, Dresden, Leipzig, Stuttgart etc. 330,000-900,000 Japanese civilians killed by Allied bombings in Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki etc. 60,000-100,000 Italian killed in bombs, 19,000-30,000 Hungarians, 6,000 Romanians, 1,000 Bulgarians and 2,000 Thai civilians killed in bomb attacks.

Soviet Union ethnic cleansing – Several ethnic groups deported to Siberia and central Asia for alleged collaboration with Nazi Germany. This includes Volga Germans, Poles, Kalmyks, Chechens and Crimean Tatars, among others. The death toll from those who suffered with famine, illness and exposure was likely over 500,000. Soviets would kill those who resisted.

I could list more, such as some of the actions of the Yugoslav partisans (who were the most supportable Balkans force). Many of these were unsupportable and disgusting. Many call the Soviet ethnic cleansing operations genocide. Yet it doesn’t make the war any less of a just war given the context or make our alliance with the Soviet Union wrong, even if it was the lesser of two evils. Some of this is worse than what Israel has done, which is comparable to our bombing raids on Germany. I don’t believe we called for citizen evacuation either. Some of our raids were for infrastructure in aim, but many doubt some like Dresden were. There has been debate over the necessity of this, but most seem to understand why conflict was happening, despite civilian risk, and don’t use it as a means to equivocate between Allies and Axis.

To reiterate, I would like to see Israel minimise its casualties, yet how much can they make this 0% is a question, especially when Hamas try and maximise casualties and prevent civilians from escaping. None of it is good, it’s all upsetting for all involved, but my main goal here is to say it’s not so easy to say that Israel should refrain from conflict or that civilians can escape harm in such. I wish it was another way, and maybe it can be in the future. There won’t be any of it though while Hamas have any power.

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The problem is that so many were quick to jump the gun and just blame Israel because of a Hamas minister being quoted, but there has been zero evidence for this or the death toll claimed in this blast (I highly doubt Hamas knew 500 were dead within minutes). The claims about the specific footage can be verified from external sources, but there is far more scepticism towards that from some quarters than blind claims from a Hamas minister. We now have this, recorded timestamps of PIJ and Hamas rocket firing, conversations recorded of Hamas operatives discussing the incident as a failed rocket etc which all point in one direction. Of course it’s possible to be wrong, but there is far more evidence for a failed rocket than Israeli airstrikes. Recent photos of the incident show no cratering or anything you’d associate with an airstrike.

This is important, because those jumping the gun have potentially normalised misinformation, put Jews at risk because of this and created a false narrative which will do nothing but escalate the situation.

I haven’t seen what should be done instead regarding an act of war from Hamas. We know war, especially urban warfare, has a high risk of collateral casualties. War is bad is a trite cliche that most know; the casualties are of course bad. I don’t think anyone truly knows the ideal situation here, and I do not think one exists. However, no other country would accept kidnapping by extremist zealots, and such would cause military conflict in many places. One thing I do think is that this can end if hostages are released and conditions are met. I don’t see why this is so hard for activists to push for, but they only seem to think that Israel has agency here.

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Deereyme66 wrote:

Not sure how to interpret the OINST clip Siderite. Not being well versed in munitions and explosives and what I’m supposed to be looking for.

The important things really are the claims made, I think. The clip is of a rocket blast it links to the hospital bombing. The same clip is available elsewhere via Al Jazeera with a timestamp of the hospital bombing. This is not definitive, but I think it should be a warning for the media outlets and everyone who just pushed an unverified claim by a Hamas minister before evidence came out which suggests other explanations are maybe more plausible

It’s easy for 64 to talk of swallowing any old crap, but he was the one who put forward claims of bombing hospitals, linking it to Israel, when the only evidence was Hamas said it.

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Wise words from Shashank Joshi:

The evidence this morning, though NOT conclusive by any means, points more towards a failed rocket launch than an Israeli air strike. Last night’s rush to judgment, including by major regional powers, was premature, cynical and irresponsible. More evidence still needed. https://t.co/bBHICmazws

— Shashank Joshi (@shashj) October 18, 2023

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The question is again about what should Israel do instead after an act of war and hostages taken. There won’t be a ceasefire of any sort until that happens. It would be like demanding UK call a ceasefire after Germany started WWII by invading Poland. A ceasefire is only possible when certain conditions are met, and Israel won’t pertain it for now; they won’t want to make Hamas think they can do a pogrom and kidnapping again without consequence to them. It’s all well and good saying Israel should stop, but they aren’t the only ones with agency. It shouldn’t be too much for Hamas to give up the hostages.

As for what both sides say, yes there will be conflicting claims. Yet that doesn’t mean it’s impossible to determine anything. It has been clear that Russian claims are far more false than Ukrainian, and independent sources. Their spreading of disinformation doesn’t invalidate everything the other side says. It shouldn’t be about believing what suits your opinion, it should be about what the evidence suggests. This event is still early, but if people are going to make claims then they need to back it up. OSINT is an open source intelligence network, not affiliated to Israel or Palestine, and they have stated that the hospital was bombed by a failed PIJ missile:

Footage has been released from Northern Gaza earlier tonight which appears to possibly show a Rocket launched by Palestinian Groups in the Strip having Exploded for an Unknown Reason causing Debris to Rain Down resulting in the Explosion and subsequent Fire at Al-Ahli Arabi… pic.twitter.com/3qVdzkW3aV

— OSINTdefender (@sentdefender) October 17, 2023

The evidence they give for this comes from a rocket strike, as captured by Al Jazeera at the same time as the hospital bombing, coming from the ground (I doubt the IDF airforce fly at ground level) and Hamas and PIJ announcing a barrage of missiles a few minutes before the bombing.

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Those who were so eager to believe a Hamas minister may want to think why given there are now multiple reports of a failed Palestinian Islamic Jihad missile causing this. We don’t know for sure and it’s maybe best to wait until there’s actual evidence of what happened. It just makes me wonder why there was a motivation to believe without evidence.

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Iron-awe wrote:

That is appalling from a so called responsible politician, you must be concerned Siderite that with such an extreme unpopular right wing government running Israel this whole saga is going to get more bloody and deadly by the day, the poor innocents firstly in Israel and now in Gaza, what a terrible situation for the people who are not responsible for any of this.

I do not like the Israeli government and have noted the protests recently. I have been in favour of the protests for some time, and still am now. Netanyahu has to go, even if it has to wait to the war’s conclusion. As do the cranks supporting him. However, what happened would see Israel go to war under any Israeli government. The nature of the government gives me more worries over response, which is why that tweet alerted me.

I agree with the horror of what’s happening. I don’t think there’s any easy solution until Hamas just releases the hostages, which is no big ask, and some pressure can be put to end this.

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This is not good and has me more worried now. He needs to be removed from office.

Israel's minister of national security, Itamar Ben-Gvir, said the only thing that should enter Gaza until the hostages are released are “hundreds of tons of explosives” from the Israeli Air Force, "not an ounce of humanitarian aid.”

— Alex Marquardt (@MarquardtA) October 17, 2023

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Neither am I, I am just saying war is inevitable, not caused by Israel, has a right to respond to an act of war and saying that it’s not genocide. Saying that If you want to play that game, I could say that you don’t give a damn about Jews since you have no answer or care for what happened seemingly. If only Israel did nothing and allowed Hamas to kill more civilians in a genocidal rampage, eh? At least you can sleep easily then.

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As I have said before, what should Israel do given Hamas has taken hostages? Doing nothing is unpalatable, Hamas won’t entertain diplomacy without massive concessions and how long does it take? Urban warfare is brutal, but there have been attempts to get people to evacuate. Whether this is enough is debatable, but the idea that this is genocidal is off.

The act of war was started with the pogrom. I do not know what the answer is to be honest, I do not know if this is the right solution, and fear what might happen and don’t want things to worsen. However, I don’t see how Israel can’t respond somehow. When they face an enemy who have historically used human shields, placed ammunition depots near schools and hospitals, it is going to end up messy. Evacuating is not ideal, but what is? We cannot expect Israel to abandon its citizens. If the IRA had launched a bloody assault killing thousands in England and brought hostages back to Belfast, we’d likely see an escalation from the British Army. Same with many other countries. When the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour in an act of war, it wasn’t the fault of the US for retaliating with war. If Hamas are going to do similar, then they are responsible as the aggressor.

I do not know what will happen, evidence may emerge of Israel committing deliberate attacks on civilians, but right now it’s too confusing to say. However, Hamas have already gone beyond the line of acceptability by a long shot and explicitly make their intent clear. They do not care about Palestinian lives for that matter, and there will be no peace and harmony until they’re discredited. This has a chance to end if Hamas release the hostages, but there is little pressure for them to do so and force Israel into doing what they said they’d do.

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Palestine’s government have been launching missiles at cities with civilians in and no attempt to evacuate.

“I support Palestine.”

Such rhetoric can work both ways.

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Aye, clearly they evacuated people to bomb (planned) empty buildings of innocent civilians for no reason. Meanwhile Hamas have been launching 6000 missiles since October 7 at cities and towns with no discrimination, yet not a peep from many.

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Israel encroached on territory after aggression from others. Whether this was right is debatable, but I am struggling to see why it’s so horrible and beyond the pale compared to other nations that have done similar (including in Europe after both world wars. There is less bellyaching from Poland about losing a lot to what is now Ukraine. Same with Finland towards Karelia as part of Russia. Any arguments over this are far less heated). Given the hostility towards Israel and Jews from some, is it to be blamed to want to defend itself? The position of resistance has brought nothing but misery. Surely there’s another way for Palestinians to go about this, because Israel does not and should not go away.

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I could say the forceful persecution of Jews in other countries and aggression in 1947 could also help in bringing this to today.

People keep saying things like two wrongs don’t make a right, but I am yet to see what Israel should do. Nothing? Leave the hostages to suffer? How do you avoid civilian casualties in urban warfare? Israel have specifically stated that their primary aim is to release the hostages, so where are the calls for this to happen and then use that as leverage against any military continuation? No-one seems to make it, which is why many say there is no acknowledgement of what triggered this. Now we have Antony Blinken announcing that the US and Israel have agreed aid corridors for Gaza, which is very odd for a case of apparent genocide, it must be said. Of course there is much able to be critiqued, but the idea that Israel is equivalent to a bunch of genocidal thugs is out there. Like I have said, if people didn’t want war, maybe Hamas and its vocal supporters shouldn’t have been chomping at the bit for it.

To me, the Palestinian activists won’t do this because many just don’t consider it from the other angle or, worse, don’t care. As can be seen with the many disgusting chants to kill Jews, celebrating dead Jews, associations with paragliders after they killed civilians in a brutal pogrom. Speakers made these comments, so they can’t use the excuse of it being some non-entities. The problem now is that any moral standpoint of the Palestinian cause from the hardened activists is laughable.

There will never be improvement for Palestinians so long as Hamas have control. Their genocidal desires have not been a secret (they make it clear in their charter), even if some have ignored them, and Israel won’t and shouldn’t have to accept having to live near those who want their citizens killed.

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A bit old news that, and seems to be the usual mix of ‘peaceful protesters’ bringing molotov cocktails and incendiary reaction fro, Israeli soldiers seen.

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Calling out Hamas for their vicious crimes, as well as those who support them, is hardly demonising Muslims. I have already condemned Madeley’s stupid comments, as I do those who killed the Muslim in Chicago. No-one here actually thinks what’s happening is good or ideal. Criticising jihadists and their apologists is not demonising Muslims, because this isn’t aimed at all Muslims.

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TwoWrights

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I will try not to get sucked in now. I don’t want to risk it becoming more hostile. I have given my opinion and think it has been mostly a good debate. I can understand why it can cause tension, and there are no easy answers. I think the charge of genocide is far too extreme for reasons given.

That said, for anyone more pro-Israeli, it must be remembered that Palestinians aren’t defined by Hamas. There has been a timidness from some quarters of the media in labeling what happened as terrorism or as a pogrom and many activists have sickeningly glorified in Hamas’s actions, including those spearheading such protests. However, stuff like this from Richard Madeley is bang out of order:

Richard Madeley asks British Palestinian MP Layla Moran if she or her family knew about Hamas's attack before it happened #GMB pic.twitter.com/guUptvdlGk

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) October 17, 2023

Whatever the answer is, treating Palestinians as inherently evil is wrong.

All the best in your personal situation, JI.

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TwoWrights, Just Iron

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Jimmy isn’t an Israeli source. I trust you have evidence of this claim, given it’s so self-evident.

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The targets have been aimed at important installations, so far as I understand, but have inevitably killed civilians. Humans shields may have played a part in this. There may be much to criticise Israel for here, but it doesn’t make it genocide, because intent matters. Otherwise the bombings of Hamburg, Hiroshima, Melitupol, Belgrade, Baghdad etc could be classified as genocide. Civilians died in them.

Also, there has been no solid evidence of Israel bombing those making their way southward yet. Given Hamas have been setting up roadblocks to prevent escape and reportedly setting up IEDs, it’s best to be careful. I know of security experts who have said that footage from one incident used as evidence for this does not look like an airstrike:

There seems to be an deflagration, but no detonation – i.e. no high explosives. It doesn't look like any airstrike I've seen.

— Jimmy Rushton (@JimmySecUK) October 14, 2023

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I pressed send too early. This is a response which should be under my above post.

Maybe, but it seemed to be a defense against a position I was not stating, so said such for clarity.

I think there is not much more to be said from me, and realise I am an opinionated sod. I realise most who disagree on here have their own perspective which is well meaning. I wish the same could be said for many of the activists. However, I still think a country has the right to react to hostage taking and an attack on its countrymen. Not many say the US was the aggressor or war monger in WWII after Pearl Harbour, yet this was an attack on Israeli civilians which makes it even more outrageous. Is there a better way? I won’t say there isn’t, but no-one (across wider spheres than this forum) has been able to suggest a workable one. The results of war are often brutal, but I don’t see how Israel is primarily to blame here given the context. The calls to evacuation are an attempt to mitigate civilian casualties, which shows there isn’t a genocidal intent. Disagree with it, point out the stress on resources elsewhere, but it demonstrates a key rebuttal to genocide claims since that is reliant on intent to destroy a culture. I don’t claim to know what’s best, the complexity of it all is disheartening since I can’t see a way out of it besides suffering for those involved (Israeli or Palestinian). One thing that can be done is a global call for the release of the hostages. That might be some leverage. However, it’s not yet happening and I can’t see the Palestinian activists bothering, even though it would help Palestine.

[Siderite]

Siderite wrote:

It came across as you’re trying to rebut my position on forum members supporting Hamas, so I thought I would say otherwise for clarity and to avoid straw manning.

[Author]

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