[Just Iron]

Welding all night under the railway arch … then off to the White City to run the legs off ‘the Toffs.’

[Just Iron]

Also same era ..Dave Wottle. Run your 800m 20 yards adrift at the back til the last 250 and then put the burners on. Wottle the Throttle.

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Heath

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‘Completely ignoring the radio, world service and programmes that people value that no other TV company would make. Internet/media prices rising by more than 10% so how many subscriptions would people need to replace the value lost from the BBC?’
Worth considering … which I hadn’t because I don’t use any of them so hadnt thought beyond TV. Maybe a Govt subsidy if they are deemed socially valuable and making a difference internationally. I’m still not persuaded that I should have to finance the Beeb in order to watch ITV or Yesterday.

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Heath

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NI Subscription would clearly be different to the Licence Fee. You could choose to pay it and watch BBC. If you chose not to subscribe then you could still watch ITV, Channel 4 etc etc Seems pretty obvious to me.

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You guys seem to have way more free time than me … I don’t listen to podcasts for example. For some reason I hooked into this thread and am intrigued by the idea of folks publically analysing the speech of ‘gurus.’ I’m definitely going to have a listen to the one on Pageau, Peterson and Murray ..and it’s not as long as some of the others I gather. I really like ALL three of these guys so it will be great to have my eyes opened ..potentially. I may even give a reflection on here if that’s ok.

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Quote: ‘ Not a valid reason to scrap the TV licence.’

No ..agreed. But maybe it’s one more contribution to the argument that it’s time that viewers of TV channels other than the BBC shouldn’t have to pay a fee … to finance the BBC. Let there be a fee by all means … to watch the BBC. Then people can decide to pay ..or freely watch other channels which are financed by other means. The present mess certainly highlights the fact that the world has changed drastically since the days of BBC monopoly and the Licence Fee is becoming archaic.

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Gurney said: ‘Many use religion as a camouflage for hurtful and bigoted opinions, as it frequently gets them a ‘free pass’ and is excused if it’s part of someone’s faith. But it shouldn’t be. It should be called out and challenged.

When we hear from the religious right that ‘abortion is morally wrong’, or ‘women shouldn’t have babies outside wedlock’ and so on… rather than meekly commenting ‘Oh I see, it’s your religious belief, so you can carry on exercising your rights over other people’s bodies and lives or at least supporting those organisations that do just that’, it’s important to oppose this sort of closed-minded bigotry, no matter whether the origin is Christian, Muslim, Jewish or Jedi…

Thankfully, church and state have been separate for centuries in this country, which without doubt has enabled human rights to progress in a ways which have not been possible in many others, particularly the rights of women, gays, and minorities in general. Everyone should be grateful for this enlightenment and de-throning of religious authority, rather than longing for a return to darkness, bigotry and deference to superstition.’

Nope, Gurney. A failed response on so many levels .. not least your total failure to see your own intolerance and bigotry. The impetus towards secularisation has certainly ensured that people of faith have decreasing impact on the issues you cite. It places us in the minority. But we should still have the right of expression afforded to others … although I’ve long suspected that your personal ideological pathologies would love to see people like me silenced and criminalised. I am 70 years old now … but you may well see this fulfilled in my life time.

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Heath said :‘Whose limits?’

Exactly. Needs a clear protocol. All of this present row is a result of bumbling on the hoof decisions.

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No problem. We definitely disagree on this subject … and I recognise that it is one of several that can be inflammatory nowadays.
A bit intrigued to find that you might place a value on something in terms of it being ‘sacred.’ I wonder if we share the same definition.

[Just Iron]

Time to ditch the TV licence. Not at all happy that the Beeb hasn’t worked out yet what ‘free speech’ means and the responsibilities and limits of what can and cannot be presented for discussion.
Another case in point would be the total lack of debate about the economic effects, especially on the poor, and the actual effectiveness of current attempts to mitigate perceived problems with the Climate.

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BobbyGmeister, lesgeo

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It’s definitely emotive and carries complexity, Sidey. I have to say that I don’t think some of your responses were a match up for my post. I didn’t accuse anyone of murder for example. I gave my analysis as to why one side of the argument has gained ground over the years as society has secularised. Clearly I don’t think that’s been good for anyone .. and especially the unborn.
What I can appreciate is that you seem prepared to reflect on your statements and modify if deemed appropriate.

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Some nasty generalisations and below the belt stuff there, Sidey. Uncharacteristic. Maybe your first sentence was the way to go.

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This is not my thread so BPG can choose to go further or not on why he posted. Abortion is a topic which I have strong views about … no surprise there!
Today I see that little Isobel is being hailed as a miracle baby born at 22 weeks, just over 1 lb in weight, given less than 10% chance of surviving. Now out of the woods, thriving and giving joy to many. In a society which sanctions abortion up to birth for being flawed with such abominations as Downes syndrome and aborts thousands every year at later term than Isobel was born I find myself saddened. I know the reason … we have let go the notion of the sanctity of life even as we have relinquished the notion of sacredness itself. What struck me about the incident in Germany .. and I suspect is at least a part of Bill’s point … is that the BBC and every news outlet I have seen refer to the killing of an unborn child or baby. I have been roundly rebuked several times for using such ‘politicised language.’ ‘If it ain’t born it’s a foetus or a neonate or an embryo or a zygote .. but not a human being, a child, a baby … that’s just a political ploy to undermine the right to terminate.’ Some consistency would be welcome … but I’ve long since given up the hope of seeing integrity in public discourse, especially on such emotive issues.

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Maybe I’m just not ‘big’ enough, Deerey. What I’ve found is that it’s just not possible to keep it straight when several posters launch in from all angles, ignoring or misrepresenting any explanations I take time to present, lacing replies with insults and usually seeing no need to present their own belief system and the foundation thereof. In this exchange I don’t have that sense .. but not everyone is involved yet and I’m done with discussions that are not in good faith.
Sidey … yes. I know a few bearing the name Christian who fit your description. There are several possibilities. Maybe they haven’t grown much or been badly discipled and taught. Maybe they have adopted a ‘religious’ posture without any real spiritual transaction. Who knows. What I would say is that the cumulative ‘track record’ of those claiming to follow Christ over the centuries … the Judeo – Christian or Biblical worldview … is pretty impressive in civilisational terms. Of course, to save anyone the trouble, I have heard of the Crusades and the Inquisition but don’t accept that things done in the name of Christ are necessarily the product of His spiritual engagement. The ‘track record’ I am talking about are at, the macro level, the great achievements of Western civilisations built on those Biblical foundations and, at a more micro level, the massive social capital even still manifesting in our society from Christian based Charities … and through many individuals who live sacrificially because of their allegiance to one who showed the beauty of such an approach to life and death.

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Ok. First to answer 64. It’s not ‘basically’ what Jesus or the Bible teaches. What they do say, which is so commonly misunderstood, is that no matter how much we try … how kind or good we may be ..we can’t reach the kingdom of heaven by our own virtue. It takes a spiritual transaction … a new birth.
That’s the reality, Deerey, of Biblical teaching. Hence the subtlety … we will inevitably manifest kindness, empathy etc if we genuinely have had that encounter. But it doesn’t start with any measure of human goodness.
I may dip out now .. apparently I ‘have form’ on this … although genuine, civil expressions of interest may always tempt me.

[Just Iron]

Thanks, 64. It’s clearer now. I didn’t pick up on the capital C. You obviously meant Conservatives who are also Christian…. rather than Christians who hold to traditional teaching.
ps For what it’s worth …. Christ didn’t actually teach that ‘sharing, empathy, kindness and forgiveness’ will get anyone into heaven. It’s a bit more subtle and drastic than that.

[Just Iron]

First time at Boothferry Park … and took my wife as we were then heading on to Scunny to visit parents. I remember losing her in the melee after that goal … and finding her ten yards away minutes later!! Apart from Wembley and .. strangely … a cup game at Burnley against non league Accrington .. she has never been to an way game. (Anyone remember the bricks being lobbed as we made our way out?)

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Deereyme66

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My further twopennorth. I probably gave this thread extra ‘legs’ by pointing out the strange fascination of several posters with beliefs that they dismiss as fantasies. When good faith responses have been made in the past some of these same posters resort to mockery and insults. On my last venture into these waters I made lengthy, detailed and rational explanations as to why I felt that the topic was being superficially approached by some. When the points made were repeatedly ignored or misrepresented, again by some, I decided that enough was enough and bowed out. Within a few hours one poster was gleefully asserting that as far as offering explanations and reasoned arguments was concerned I ‘had form’ in terms of avoiding debate.
I’m happy to discuss and disagree and be disagreed with. I’m not averse to passionate and robust exchanges. What nauseates me is when people don’t engage with honesty, ignore carefully crafted arguments, attribute dissenting views to wickedness or ignorance and … worst of all … take pleasure in the potential to land some sort of a blow by doing the above. It’s one of the reasons why my contributions are few and far between.
Perhaps the biggest disappointment for me is that when one or two posters showed signs of genuine appreciation of someone posting a minority perspective on the Christian faith in a reasoned way and were engaging in respectful dialogue .. … the ‘types’ described above made sure that the thread descended into chaos.
‘It’s only a football fans forum’ has been the rebuttal for my plea for respectful and honest debate. If that’s the defence for all of the above approach .. then I guess I’m right in my take that I should take myself elsewhere.

ps a bit of a pity because I did want to probe 64 as to why it would be ‘conservative’ Christians who would be greeted by Satan. I guess I’ll never get to know.

[Just Iron]

ppps see my posting on the ‘listening to thread’ … now there’s a pointer to a reality existing beyond ‘people’s heads.’

[Just Iron]

Wonderful stuff from,Leonard. I just love that passion. A call to 64, Gurney and NI around 8 mins.

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[Just Iron]

pps TW posted as I was writing. A good 4th I think.

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If I had to say which 3 folk on the Bru were most evidently strangely fascinated by a spiritual dimension that they purported to dismiss out of hand … along with a high degree of intolerance towards those of a different persuasion … then the posters above would be my choice.
ps You came into my thoughts a couple of days ago,Gurney. So I prayed for you. Hope all is OK in your world.

[Just Iron]

Ben Affleck
Roger Waters
Justin Welby

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Pat. You contribute so much sense on a regular basis . . . so get over Bucks. He’s obviously irritated you (and more) in the past. But when you call him out on something from weeks ago even when it may not have been him then I think it’s time to draw a line.

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IronIronIron

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. . . . . . . .

[Just Iron]

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BobbyGmeister

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Leaving Twitter .. ‘Particularly now it’s owned by a right wing extremist.’
Strange perspective taken at face value MK. Am I missing something?

[Just Iron]

I’m a regular and usually bring another family member or friend. Coming with three others tomorrow.

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IronIronIron, lesgeo, Iron-awe

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