- This topic has 51 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 10 months, 3 weeks ago by
.
-
It’s not a game of football, people are dieing, in their thousands.
I can’t believe some of the stuff that’s put on here.
“I’m for the Israelis”.
“I’m for the Palestinians”.
What about the children?
There are evil people on both sides.
What about the innocents?
One thing that will happen is many more Palestinians will die than Israelis.
There will still be nutters supporting Hamas, resentment will continue.1 user thanked author for this post.
64 ..3 possibilities as to why you post in this way. a) You simply love provoking a reaction. The more you can stir the better. Gives life to the site etc b) You’re either a bit lazy or a bit simplistic in your analytical skills. All that nuance and complexity ain’t for you. Just pick a side and pile in. Apart from anything ..who wants all the hard graft of learning the history and weighing the situation ..of being educated. c) Your a dyed in the wool ‘progressive’ ideologue who sees all through a lens of ‘colonisation’ of the noble savage. Boy does it feel good to have a cause ..especially if it costs nowt personally. Maybe one of the three or some mixture of them all.
1 user thanked author for this post.
I think in this debate many lose sight of what started this, which was that Hamas decided to launch a pogrom specifically to kill civilians. None of what has happened would have happened without that. Now many Israeli citizens are kept hostage by the extremists who committed this.
It’s easy to pontificate, but what should Israel do? Do nothing? That is a signal for Hamas that this can work and they can do it again without consequences. Never mind the pressure to save the hostages from concerned Israelis and family or friends of the victims. To do nothing is unpalatable.
Then what can Israel do? How do they rescue hostages and protect themselves from an Islamist fanatical cult without military action? How do they commit military actions without deaths of civilians? Hamas have deliberately embedded themselves within society, placing their related ammunition stores and infrastructure near schools and hospitals. If they are to be removed, how is that addressed without casualty? Again, to ignore this allows Hamas to use resources to target Jews. No other country would be expected to allow themselves to be at risk of death.
Genocide is a very emotive term, but it also has a specific definition which includes intent to murder another ethnicity because of their ethnicity. It’s not simply about large number of civilian deaths of one ethnicity or nationality. Otherwise events like the siege of Sarajevo, the Irish famine, 9/11 etc could be classified as genocide. I do not see an intent from Israel to kill Palestinians. They have specifically told them to escape in order to avoid getting caught up in the conflict. If Israel didn’t do this, they’d be accused of genocide for maximising civilian casualties, yet this isn’t good enough. Seemingly doing nothing in response to mass murder and hostage taking is the only acceptable outcome for some. Hamas won’t entertain diplomacy without massive concessions, and why should Israel make concessions to a fanatical cult which wants Jews dead?
I am saddened by it, because it will mean dead Palestinians and suffering of them. I cannot see how Israel cannot react though. What Hamas undertook over a week ago was an act of war. Maybe, if they didn’t want Israel to engage in a war, they shouldn’t have been the aggressor. I would like to see NGOs deliver aid, but it has to go to the people, not be handed over to Hamas for them to pocket as they often do. Previous attempts to give them water pipes were useless, because Hamas dug them up to use as rocket launchers for Israel.
I think there’s a lack of understanding from some quarters as to what Hamas is. There is some understanding that they’re not just your idealised freedom fighter, but there’s still this jaded view that they must be reacting to Israeli aggression all the time. Yet, they’re not just that. They’re an Islamist cult whose aims towards Jews are not hidden; their charter makes it clear what they want to do with Jews. From the river to the sea is an explicit signal of their intention to destroy Israel. Anyone who thinks there can be peace in Israel with Hamas’s existence is kidding themselves. Hamas won’t be happy until Israel and its Jews are destroyed.
It’s easy for the hard left, like Rivkah Brown, Michael Walker, Aaron Bastani et al., to go gooey eyed over Hamas thugs spilling over the border to massacre civilians as part of some ‘resistance’ of the virtuous oppressed. However, this is a position of privilege which does not match with the reality of Hamas’s beliefs and actions. They are no better than the Nazis and have led Palestine to oblivion. For too long many in the Palestinian movement has apologised, obfuscated and dismissed concerns about them. They have allied with sympathetic speakers for years under the guise of resistance, swallowing their propaganda. What they have done is destroy any chance of Palestinian sovereignty, which I do support, because it has become entangled with Islamism.
1 user thanked author for this post.
They should understand the necessity of a reaction if so. 64 seems to struggle with this.
Like I have suggested, if Hamas gave one ounce of care for their civilians, maybe they shouldn’t have launched this pogrom, nor embedded themselves in civilians, nor roadblocked those fleeing. Israel are not setting out to deliberately kill civilians, as the order to evacuate demonstrated, so I cannot see it as ‘genocide’ any more than the bombing of Germany was during WWII. It’s not ideal, but how does Israel free hostages and protect itself from Hamas, who have signalled its desire to destroy Israel, without the risk of civilian casualties? My point was less about the difficulty of removing Hamas, more about the difficulty of an idealistic solution.
1 user thanked author for this post.
Without Iarael, there’d still be issues with Iran and Saudi, along with the conflicts arising between dictators and the people, as seen in Syria, Egypt, Libya etc.
I don’t think it’s a bad thing that Israel came to fruition, especially given the Christian and Islamic world’s persecution of such. If other states have an issue with it existing, I don’t think that can be blamed on Israel.
I admit that I do not know the ‘right answer’, but don’t think I can blame Jews for wanting their own state, especially when they migrated or were persecuted to go there.
1 user thanked author for this post.
I’m impressed with the level of exchanges on here as we all wrestle with this horror show. Well done Sidey on some great points made.
To III and IA I would agree that going back to origins is extremely relevant. I wouldn’t agree that it’s a fair assessment that the Jews were given too much leeway between 1917 and 1948. Anything but. The UK was actually rebuked by the League of Nations in the 1930s for not fulfilling the Mandate to encourage Jewish settlement. We might also reflect on the 800000 Jews hounded out of Islamic nations after Israel was birthed and also the hundreds of 1000s of Holocaust survivors in European camps after WW2 with no welcome from most nations …not to mention the closing of the Mandate to Jews in the Nazi area which effectively steered millions to the gas Chambers. Not too much leeway for me!!
The charge that Israel ‘started the 1967 war’ I have heard before. I know why a kind of case may be made because of Israels pre emptive air strike ..but no serious historian denies that the Arab armies were massing with anything other than ethnic cleansing and Genocide in mind. This kind of distortion of history and the encouragement of a victim mentality amongst Israel’s neighbours is what perpetuates this problem. If anyone believes that Hamas, Hezbullah, Iran et al are partners for peaceful co existence then I’m a Mariner through and through and Matt Tees was my grandma.1 user thanked author for this post.
I am also an opinionated sod.
One point I really want to emphasise is that I have said from the outset that the Hamas attack was outrageous & I have not blamed Israel for wanting to retaliate against them.
My objection is attacking Palestinians. Yes, Hamas are embedded there, yes it is difficult to differentiate at times, but they must do so.
My last comment is back to genocide. Israel attacked Gaza knowing that the vast majority of deaths would not be Hamas members. They also attacked the road going South after they suggested that people move South to be safe – again guaranteeing that civilians would die. Today they tracked the border region with Egypt – with the full knowledge that many people were gathering there looking to cross when/if the border was opened. Again, they know that many civilians will die.
This is not a competition (for you JI), but for the last 30 years we have seen many more Palestinian civilians being killed than Israelis.
It is all very sad, and I fear the worst is yet to come.
1 user thanked author for this post.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.