Ann Widdecombe

[alcazar]

Like her or loathe her, her murder will resound in British politics once again.
What has our once great UK come to?

[Iron-awe]

Agreed it’s another example of unnecessary violence for the sake of it, why murder a defenceless old lady, we have some sick people amongst us and it’s sickening and depressing.

1 user thanked author for this post.

alcazar

[64]

When do you consider it was once great?
Our much revered royals sell their daughters for influence,politicians have traditionally connived and murdered their way to the top.We celebrate it too. Perhaps the vile woman will get a statue along with the slave traders and pirates that made it a once great country

[Iron-awe]

I believe alcy was trying to reflect his anger in some way but you are correct about our historical links with murder linking power and corruption. It happens the world over in whichever country but the act of murder particularly in a defenceless elderly person is just abhorrent, reckon most of us would agree on that.

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alcazar

[alcazar]

64 wrote:

When do you consider it was once great?

During two world wars, where we fought for freedom and the underdog?
After WW2, when the USA left us destitute, and rationing was still on force for the next nine years, but we came back to prosperity?
In the 60’s, when we led the world in fashion, music and culture?

[Siderite]

64 wrote:

When do you consider it was once great?
Our much revered royals sell their daughters for influence,politicians have traditionally connived and murdered their way to the top.We celebrate it too. Perhaps the vile woman will get a statue along with the slave traders and pirates that made it a once great country

Widdecombe held some archaic and, in my opinion, bigoted views. However, there is a world of difference between her and a slave trader or pirate.

[Northumbiron]

Ann Widdecombe is a murder victim that happens to be a former politician. I think we need to know more about the circumstances of the crime before we delve into the political side of things.

“This once great country of ours”. Jeez, if I had a quid for every time I’ve heard this nonsense blurted out! Usually by the Tommy Robinsons and Nigel Farages of this world as they try to stir up the hatred.

There was no Golden Era in British history. It is completely subjective.

“During two world wars, where we fought for freedom and the underdog?”

Well the First World War was nothing to do with freedom, it was about Nationalism and Empire building.

If you think Nazism was defeated by good old Tommy Atkins, you’re wrong. Sure we played a major role but without American equipment and Soviet numbers the outcome would have been very different.

“After WW2, when the USA left us destitute, and rationing was still on force for the next nine years, but we came back to prosperity?”

Like every other country in Europe.

“In the 60’s, when we led the world in fashion, music and culture?”

Now that’s an interesting one. I suspect you chose that particular decade because it’s the one you grew up in. And that’s where subjectivity plays a part. To my parents the 1930s was their golden era. Ask my children and they’ll most likely say the noughties. Anyone growing up in the 60s probably thinks it was the best of times for themselves and the country.

Led the World in fashion? I think the French and Italians may disagree.

Music? Hmm! May have a transatlantic battle on our hands for that one. Sure we had the Beatles and the Stones and of course we had Top of the Pops. Presented by fine upstanding characters like Jimmy Savile and Dave Lee Travis, and featuring well loved acts such as Rolf Harris and Gary Glitter.

Culture? Really? A culture of drinking, smoking and womanising. A culture of sexual and racial inequality. An era when homosexuality was illegal until 1967.

So you see there was is no golden age for the country, just a golden age for you. Which is why as we grow older we look back dewy-eyed at a time when we thought everything was great. Well for us it might have been, but for others it was a nightmare. The swinging 60s was the precipice of the pits of hell for the likes of Malcolm Muggeridge and Mary Whitehouse.

So you have the Britain First boys in their Crusader surcoats (something else that never happened) Reform and Restore Britain (restore it to what? The time of the Roman occupation? Medieval England and the Black Death? The Civil War? Victorian times with high child mortality, cholera and tuberculosis?) talking about something that never existed.

The past is another country. And we know what the British feel about other countries!

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TwoWrights, Gurnelista

[alcazar]

Question for you:
If you hate the UK so much why do you continue to live there?
Not sure where you learned your history?
Was it from another lefty?

[Gurnelista]

Great post NI, you saved me an hour putting together something not as good…
Alcy, people everywhere often think in the way you describe, that the past was always a better place, things aren’t the same now, everything’s got worse, it’s not like when I was a lad, etc. etc. Just look at how Alf Garnett used to rail against his own time, with its gay lib and blacks ‘everywhere’ and bra burners, and that was in one of your golden eras!
Romanticising the past is pure grandadology, but it’s not history.
True, there were a lot of legal reforms in the 60s and 70s which made life more equal for gays, blacks, and women in terms of pay, discrimination, reproductive rights and and not being locked up for your sexuality. But a lot of the time, and far from ‘that London’, attitudes stayed entrenched. Discrimination of all kinds was widespread, with marriage bars in some jobs, meaning women couldn’t work if they were married, and if they did could expect less pay. Gays were widely seen as either tragic or comic, and had to ‘hide it’, and for blacks and Asians both in society and on the sportsfield, it could be hell, and remained so for many years. For some, it still is.
But taking a critical look at history is not about hating Britain, on the contrary, it’s because we can open our eyes and see things clearly that we like it here.

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Northumbiron

[64]

Ironically it’s those who are berated for hating Britain that actually love what Britain is .It has faults but it would if still was a”white Christian ” country if it ever was. Those nice white Christian crooks “loved their mums” in our once great country .
I like living here ,it’s great .Could be better but we’re so lucky to be even having these conversations.
It’s the sort who Adolf Farage attracts that hate Britain,this still great country

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Northumbiron

[Northumbiron]

alcazar wrote:

Question for you:
If you hate the UK so much why do you continue to live there?
Not sure where you learned your history?
Was it from another lefty?

Re-read my post. Where did I say I hated the UK? Nowhere.

In fact I like it just as it is. I don’t need it reformed or restored.

I have a thin sheet of A4 card from Oxford University outlining where I learned my History. But no doubt you believe all our universities are run by lefties!

[alcazar]

Northumbiron wrote:

alcazar wrote:

Question for you:
If you hate the UK so much why do you continue to live there?
Not sure where you learned your history?
Was it from another lefty?

Re-read my post. Where did I say I hated the UK? Nowhere.

In fact I like it just as it is. I don’t need it reformed or restored.

I have a thin sheet of A4 card from Oxford University outlining where I learned my History. But no doubt you believe all our universities are run by lefties!

Got it in one.
Do you deny it?
😂😂😂😂
BTW: did you go to FGGS?

[Northumbiron]

Certainly not!

SGS or Green Grammar to you.

BTW we had a history teacher called Tony Armstrong who was a great influence on me. He later moved to John Leggot VI Form College where I did my A levels.

[Fifty Pence]

At university, my maths lectures were just one long Marxist diatribe. “Matrix Algebra” was obviously just a cover name to fool the dyslexic. Meanwhile the true guardians of objective history and free from indoctrination were, of course, the Sun, the Daily Mail and Daily Express – available only to those who hadn’t been tricked by all that “education” nonsense

1 user thanked author for this post.

Northumbiron

[Iron Age]

Fifty Pence wrote:

At university, my maths lectures were just one long Marxist diatribe. “Matrix Algebra” was obviously just a cover name to fool the dyslexic. Meanwhile the true guardians of objective history and free from indoctrination were, of course, the Sun, the Daily Mail and Daily Express – available only to those who hadn’t been tricked by all that “education” nonsense

Guardians of objective history?
The Sun The Mail The Express?
Try googling “Hoorah for the Blackshirts”
The Daily Mail and The Daily Express certainly have a dark history, The Daily Telegraph and The Times were not much better, as for The Sun, I don’t have to comment on that rag.

[Siderite]

It’s good to see remarks that acknowledge that the UK has things to be proud of. It’s a common belief among the right that liberals and the left don’t like the country and that stereotype comes from mocking ‘flag shaggers’ for expressions of patriotic pride. Like when Emily Thornberry mocked a white van man for adorning his house with England flags a decade ago. I don’t like the unite the Kingdom activists and think many have bad motives, but to many, criticism will fall on deaf ears when much of it seemed to damn the flag itself. To me, the UK is great because we are a country that has progressed so much with gay rights, women’s rights, rights for black people and so on. We have shown great values where there has been assimilation and people can be seen as welcome no matter their sexuality or ethnicity. Not everyone is so welcoming, but we’ve done a better job than many nations.

None of this means the country has had a spotless past or present; there are creeping issues today with a growing intolerance and we made many historical mistakes that harmed others. However, no country has a record with few blemishes and we have done something to acknowledge our past (more than what can be said for Japan, Turkey or Russia, who have had worse records at times).

I think some liberals cringe at patriotic pride because it seems burlish and putting oneself above others, but I think it is healthy to have a pride in where you’re from. Why bother improving the country if you think it has no merit? It doesn’t mean you need to tip into jingoism – every country has positives and negatives, but looking at the good points and having pride shouldn’t be taboo. The French seem to manage it from all sides of their politics, so we can too, surely.

[Deereyme66]

Iron Age wrote:

Fifty Pence wrote:

At university, my maths lectures were just one long Marxist diatribe. “Matrix Algebra” was obviously just a cover name to fool the dyslexic. Meanwhile the true guardians of objective history and free from indoctrination were, of course, the Sun, the Daily Mail and Daily Express – available only to those who hadn’t been tricked by all that “education” nonsense

Guardians of objective history?
The Sun The Mail The Express?
Try googling “Hoorah for the Blackshirts”
The Daily Mail and The Daily Express certainly have a dark history, The Daily Telegraph and The Times were not much better, as for The Sun, I don’t have to comment on that rag.

My reading of the post was that it was best consumed with a large dose of irony.

[Iron-awe]

Your correct DM but I think some people post based on the last post on the thread rather then read the whole subject matter through, this often leads to misinterpretation.

[Siderite]

Unfortunately irony will be missed by some unless there’s a whopping crying with laughter face emoji at the end of each sentence.

[64]

“I think some liberals cringe at patriotic pride because it seems burlish and putting oneself above others, but I think it is healthy to have a pride in where you’re from. Why bother improving the country if you think it has no merit? It doesn’t mean you need to tip into jingoism – every country has positives and negatives, but looking at the good points and having pride shouldn’t be taboo. The French seem to manage it from all sides of their politics, so we can too, surely.”
My problem is purely that the people who wrap themselves in the flag or claim to be proud Brits usually manifest that in hatred of immigrants or most basely brown people who they feel cannot be “proper” British .I now find that national flags are tainted, for instance going into a town or even crossing Keadby bridge and seeing rags tie wrapped inappropriately embarrasses our still great nation .They use worlds like Patriot to disguise their racism ,as for nationalists whether it’s Scottish Irish, British or whatever ,their beliefs are usually based on hatred .They feel the need to set themselves against somebody .

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Gurnelista

[Gurnelista]

And even worse are those who come on social media and blame foriegners, blacks etc. for the country’s woes knowing its a political opportunity to manipulate the racists.

[alcazar]

Siderite wrote:

It’s good to see remarks that acknowledge that the UK has things to be proud of. It’s a common belief among the right that liberals and the left don’t like the country and that stereotype comes from mocking ‘flag shaggers’ for expressions of patriotic pride. Like when Emily Thornberry mocked a white van man for adorning his house with England flags a decade ago. I don’t like the unite the Kingdom activists and think many have bad motives, but to many, criticism will fall on deaf ears when much of it seemed to damn the flag itself. To me, the UK is great because we are a country that has progressed so much with gay rights, women’s rights, rights for black people and so on. We have shown great values where there has been assimilation and people can be seen as welcome no matter their sexuality or ethnicity. Not everyone is so welcoming, but we’ve done a better job than many nations.

None of this means the country has had a spotless past or present; there are creeping issues today with a growing intolerance and we made many historical mistakes that harmed others. However, no country has a record with few blemishes and we have done something to acknowledge our past (more than what can be said for Japan, Turkey or Russia, who have had worse records at times).

I think some liberals cringe at patriotic pride because it seems burlish and putting oneself above others, but I think it is healthy to have a pride in where you’re from. Why bother improving the country if you think it has no merit? It doesn’t mean you need to tip into jingoism – every country has positives and negatives, but looking at the good points and having pride shouldn’t be taboo. The French seem to manage it from all sides of their politics, so we can too, surely.

I read through this, and broadly agree.
I noted the reference to “creeping intolerance”.
Interesting.
Perhaps it would help everyone if a certain group’s religious leaders stopped shouting about domination, conversion etc.
One of my next door neighbours is a member of this group.
He is an excellent bloke, who doesn’t try to dominate or convert anyone.
We have often helped each other.
Bit like neighbours used to be in the 50’s.

[Fifty Pence]

The 50s, where everybody got along and joyfully put up “No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish” signs?

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Deereyme66

[Iron-awe]

There was certainly a lot more of a good neighbour thing going on back when I was younger, don’t think it had anything to do with politics it was basic human kindness and friendliness as I recall.

[Deereyme66]

‘Perhaps it would help everyone if a certain group’s religious leaders stopped shouting about domination, conversion etc.’

What’s it like having American fundamental Christians living next door?

[alcazar]

Fifty Pence wrote:

The 50s, where everybody got along and joyfully put up “No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish” signs?

Having lived through both the fifties and the sixties, I can put my hand on my heart and say I never saw any such signs.
In the early seventies, where selfish became the way to be, our student house was rented from an Irish lady and the only white faces on our street were us six students.
The Afro-Caribean lads in the street played football with us, and against us, during the light evenings, and swapped food with us when we ate outside on the steps on hot evenings.
Those same lads would gleefully chuck rocks at us when we came home in the dark.

[alcazar]

Deereyme66 wrote:

‘Perhaps it would help everyone if a certain group’s religious leaders stopped shouting about domination, conversion etc.’

What’s it like having American fundamental Christians living next door?

Nice deflection.
You just can’t help yourself can you?

[Deereyme66]

It’s true, I’ve been listening to a lot of Orange Juice lately.

[Deereyme66]

Can’t be many people left who still believe gammons harking back to a supposed golden era before the 80s isn’t anything more but a thinly disguised opportunity for a bit of good old fashioned racism and jingoism.

[Iron-awe]

Yeah it’s a bit like MacMillan saying “ you never had it so good “ because we were coming out of post war rationing and had begun to receive better social housing plus we now had an NHS. Ironically it was the post war Labour government who began the mass social housing programme and introduced the NHS but that didn’t stop a Tory prime minister with a privileged upbringing trying to take a slice of the glory . In truth the so called golden age was simply bringing the rest of the ordinary people up to a better standard of life they could have been given many years before if successive governments had wanted to, but didn’t.

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Northumbiron

[Author]

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