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Good post and a good read IMO NI. You’re touching on the growing phenomenon of people’s problem with ‘otherness’. Hopefully Trump’s departure, in some small way and when the dust has finally settled, signals a move away from that.
Let’s hope so.
And before anyone kicks off I did say not all leave voters should be tarred with the same brush.
I have no doubt that many actually thought leaving the EU would be a change for the better. Despite believing they’ll eventually realise they were wrong I respect their views.
You lot are so up each others backsides it’s embarrassing but you never look back at your posts kiss kiss you know you would miss each other
You lot are so up each others backsides it’s embarrassing but you never look back at your posts kiss kiss you know you would miss each other
Don’t be embarrassed. Embrace your loneliness.
You lot are so up each others backsides it’s embarrassing but you never look back at your posts kiss kiss you know you would miss each other
Don’t be embarrassed. Embrace your loneliness.
” Bad fog of loneliness, put a cloud on my single-minded-ness ”
Just thought I’d through in a classic Neil Young line to clarify the situation of Xxx. 😂
You lot are so up each others backsides it’s embarrassing but you never look back at your posts kiss kiss you know you would miss each other
Don’t be embarrassed. Embrace your loneliness.
” Bad fog of loneliness, put a cloud on my single-minded-ness ”
Just thought I’d throw in a classic Neil Young line to clarify the situation of Xxx.
Liam Fox on Radio 4 talking about parliament ‘giving powers to the courts’ today. Does he mean he’s against parliament passing laws for courts to enforce, which is the essence of democratic law? What populist and Trumpian nonsense.
Instead of finger wagging at liberals, maybe homegrown conservatives who care about a functioning democracy should have a little look at challenging their own side for once.
Democracy is meaningless without having a strong legal system which is not undermined by ideologues. There is a reason why Hitler, Stalin and so many other despots attacked the justice system upon gaining power. They realised that checks and balances from the rule of law could thwart their desires, often excused under the pretence that they stood for the will of the people.
We knew at the time of the 2019 General Election that they’d try stuff like this given the size of their majority.
If it hadn’t been for Covid I expect we’d have seen more.
Bye bye Donny Fart. It must be a sad day for posters like LK and others who have expressed or intimated admiration for the orange one.
Interesting to see Trump flying off yesterday to the sound of My Way, very appropriate, let’s hope in a few days time the American Senate choose to do it Their Way when it comes to his impeachment trial. Wouldn’t want Fat Donny interfering in the way democracy works would we!!!
If he’s banged to rights and can’t stand again it’ll be interesting to see if another nutcase is elected leader or someone with a working brain.
His departure is a triumph for decency. The very worst of American politics has gone.
Alas, those who put him in power are still around, and still vulnerable to those telling lies for money and power.
At present it looks like the Republicans will have a rocky time as the Trumpites fight with the more moderate tendencies within the party.
It would have happened in the Tory Party here, between the far right Europsceptics and more moderate Tories, had Johnson not won the leadership, booted out the moderates and pressed on with the lies about Brexit.
I just thought I’d make Gurney’s day and make a contribution. First a question to Deerey. How far does the growth in people’s problem with ‘otherness’ extend? When I look through postings on both sides of this board I have to say that ‘other’ points of view than the majority ones on any subject tend to be received with little respect or courtesy in the majority of cases. As someone said … True tolerance begins at the point of difference.
And that cues me in … There is plenty of ‘ammo’ to be used against Donald Trump. I have a stash myself. But nevertheless .. had I lived in the USA … I would have cast my vote for the Republican Party.I just thought I’d make Gurney’s day and make a contribution. First a question to Deerey. How far does the growth in people’s problem with ‘otherness’ extend? When I look through postings on both sides of this board I have to say that ‘other’ points of view than the majority ones on any subject tend to be received with little respect or courtesy in the majority of cases. As someone said … True tolerance begins at the point of difference.
And that cues me in … There is plenty of ‘ammo’ to be used against Donald Trump. I have a stash myself. But nevertheless .. had I lived in the USA … I would have cast my vote for the Republican Party.I suspect that’s mostly because of the perception on Trump as being more pro-Israel than some?
In which case, I’d suggest looking at what Biden stands for. I do not think it can be argued that Biden is anti-Israel by a long stretch and he is already making it clear that he is a friend of the Jews with some of his appointments being Zionist Jews. The anti-Semitic Tlaibs of the Democrats are very much the fringe, unlike it was with Labour, so if this is the worry I think you should look again and reconsider. From my point of view, at least.
Biden is quite clearly separate from the ‘nuttier’ element of the Democrats, and recent events suggest that the bigger worries for democracy come from the right. And that is inseparable from Trump, who stoked it on, unlike Biden who has stoked nothing. ‘ANTIFA’ rioting was not close to being endorsed by Biden or the majority of Democrats.
I am thankful we now have a sane president who can rebuild alliances with the west. This is much needed as Russia and China present such great threats to liberal democracy.
On the subject of otherness, I don’t think we should write off people who are of differing political stances. There is plenty of room for debate among socialists, social democrats, liberals and conservatives. However, how far do we extend this? Do we nod along to neo-Nazis or Stalinists and say that we should respect their views for ideological diversity? I’d suggest not. Such views are demonstrably harmful and deserve short shrift, regardless of hurt feelings among their followers, no matter how popular they are. Karl Popper’s paradox of tolerance comes to mind here.
Of course many have too sensitive barriers for what is perceived to be seen as tolerable and there are many who would see any Tory or Brexiter as nasty or inherently thick, just as many on the other side would see a left leaning person as a traitor or some smug elitist, and then proceed to straw man and misrepresent everyone else to make themselves look like the only supportable option.
However, there are some cases where we need to have a long and hard look at people with beliefs when they are harmful to democracy and others. Trump and his base show that they hold many intolerable views towards such, with their conspiracy laden nonsense, threats to harm others for not certifying the election how they would want it and moves towards turning the USA into an autocracy. Such beliefs don’t deserve respect when they show disrespect and intolerance towards morality, in my eyes. We can respect them as people, of course, but I am not going to respect harmful nonsense about election rigging, meaning democracy should be overturned, or an ideology which has allowed harsh detention centres to flourish or coronavirus to run rampant without care.
One of the great arguments was that the USA could hold its head high against comparative powers (China, Soviet Union) because of its respect for democracy and human rights. It wasn’t always perfect, it failed miserably many times, but it would be one of the few powers who would bother to push for such. Its reputation has weakened now because of Trump, and the defences for such look so much more tepid. Those who want a strong USA to lead the way on foreign policy issues are barking up the wrong tree if they thought Trump could provide it, I feel.
“I have to say that ‘other’ points of view than the majority ones on any subject tend to be received with little respect or courtesy in the majority of cases”.
So you would have voted for a president who has done more than any other president to encourage division, lack of respect and courtesy.
I an sure that there might be a scrap of logic in your argument, but I am struggling to see any.
You probably used the same logic when you voted for Cameron’s folly Brexit. Another decision that has yet to deliver anything but division, lack of respect and courtesy.
You did vote leave didn’t you?
To be fair, it won’t be that high a bar for Biden to beat Trump in the competency stakes:
Shocking news to wake up to. Trump had literally NO VACCINATION PLAN.
No plans to distribute it, no plans to acquire it. No plans to manage it.
We are literally starting at square one today. pic.twitter.com/rJETuRX4hW
— Brianna Wu (@BriannaWu) January 21, 2021
‘Tolerance’ ‘courtesy’ and ‘respect for difference’ – fine words from Inspector Les.
So why on earth would you have voted for Trump again?
It’s the usual monstrous double standards, I’m afraid, which would be laughable if they didn’t literally supply more ammo to the far right.
I did wonder if you might have something to say on the subject of Trump JI as I distinctly recall you saying you had views on the US and Trump that probably wouldn’t go down too well in the board, for some reason. Though you didn’t elaborate and haven’t again and tbh I don’t have the time or will to second guess.
Regarding ‘otherness’, and the way ‘other points of view’ are received, well look, if I read a post from anyone and I believe it’s racist, has racist overtones, is xenophobic, or is generally bigoted and against social justice, etc, then I may well react to that and post a reply. I’m not going to start embracing otherness if the other is basically a right wing t*** or conspiracy theorist as I believe embracing that sort of other is bad for society. If the way I respond and the words I use offend people or people, like greylag for instance’, think I ‘reek of arrogance’ then so be it. I’m not actually harming anyone, though I would suggest what some people post could do, in an indirect way.
Besides, I feel you’re almost implying there is a determined ideology on here, and there isn’t. It’s a group of individuals posting views. It just so happens that there are some similarities with our views, though clearly differences.
Justles’s ideology is far-right Christian, which the proponent hides under a cassock.
It’s clear where Jonnie gets his ideas. After years of being Farage’s sidekick, he now takes the shilling/dollar of another group of frightened white Tories – Madison Liberty.
Except these are Christian / Mormon Republicans. A multi-racial country like America, and 24/26 of the team are white, with a token Hispanic and Asian!
‘fess up Les, your ideology is ‘más claro que el agua.’
When I look through postings on both sides of this board I have to say that ‘other’ points of view than the majority ones on any subject tend to be received with little respect or courtesy in the majority of cases.
But how does a point of view become a “majority one”?
Because more posters support it? If more oppose it then the argument is flipped on its head. That’s the point of the discussion. The issue of respect is a personal one and the responsibility of the poster to consider what they’ve written before hitting “send”.
I’d argue that the most disrespect comes in posts bearing phrases like “more ridiculous comments from the usual suspects/forum six” or “this is a left-wing message board”.
That’s the rhetoric of Trump with his “fake news” and “ant-American” jibes. Often in defence of the indefensible.
Madison Liberty. They get straight to the point, the first thing you see on their website is a shiny red donate button.
Are the donations used in the same way as Steve Bannen used the donations to build Trump’s wall? Or the millions Trump raised after he lost the election to finance his false claims and legal fight to overturn the result.
And is JI looking for the type of respect that Trump showed yesterday by giving a pardon to the accused Bannen BEFORE he had even gone to trial. Trump was certainly very courteous to Bannen.
And yet disciples of Trump, Johnson and Farage continue to ignore the contempt they show for justice, fairness, courtesy and respect with their corrupt actions.
Yet our good friend JI is proud to tell us he would still vote for them. Not much respect from me I’m afraid JI.
I thought I’d post to see if there was any semblance of mature discussion possible. I have resolved not to get into the tit for tat name calling and childishness which, despite his attempts to portray a persona of urbane sophistication and superiority, Gurney always resorts to with his ‘Justles’ and ‘ Jonnies’ and Doppelgangers. It shows the value he places on ‘otherness’. BRI I have always seen a more nuanced and humble response from you but was, I have to say, a bit disappointed that there was a presumption around the Israel stuff and no genuine question as to exactly why I said what I said. Gurney did ask that question .. but, sadly, in the context of making it quite clear that nothing I could say would make him shift from his position of utter contempt for me. Interestingly for Heath I was actually very conflicted on the Brexit issue and actually voted against in the referendum. It will be of some relief to Gurney, and not to disappoint him, I was then reasonably happy when I was on the losing side. The reason I can’t find a way to stay involved on the board is that there doesn’t appear to be sufficient humility and self awareness amongst the most vocal, though not all, of the contributors to realise that truth is actually quite a tentative thing and that most issues are more complex than they may appear. The name Trump is repeated so many times in responses … or more correctly reactions … to me yet I hoped to make clear by my wording that I would have voted Republican despite and not because of Trump. (Even as I write that I am cueing in the scorn at the possibility of such a position). If we could get past entrenched positions and protecting egos then maybe the pursuit of those elusive truths by respectful discussion would be a possibility. Surely that would be more satisfying than the echo chamber that will be the inevitable consequence of being so dismissive of and insulting towards voices of dissent. Where I sit is that there are some things that I know that I know. And the sum of what I really know is actually quite small .. especially when compared with what I don’t know. Now THAT is a vast ocean. And sitting with the limitations of what I am sure of won’t help me grow. But if I have the courage and humility .. and the willingness to embrace the discomfort or even the pain of allowing myself to be challenged at the deepest level .. without shrugging off the voices of ‘otherness’ as ‘right wing’ or ‘Jonnies‘ or ‘not worthy of a hearing‘.. then maybe I will get access to a part of that ocean of stuff that can help me. And some of that stuff may be carried by you for me .. and, who knows, maybe by me for you.
“We shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump” (1 Corinthians 15:52, KJV),
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My presumption of Israel being a determinative factor was solely based on what you’ve told us about yourself before and was not intended to diminish reasoning. I think voting on the basis of whether the candidate is perceived to be pro-Israel to be an understandable position, and I was not intending it to be a means of detracting reasons. I am aware of Trump’s move of the embassy, which you have in the past supported, and your family connections, and that was on my mind. It was a presumption, but it was based on that, certainly not some negative connotation.
The problem with the Republican Party is that it is now tied to Trump. Even those who aren’t him and are more long term Republicans sullied themselves by supporting his anti-democratic and horrible causes. Mitch McConnell, Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and the rest (mostly) went along with the detention centres, ego stroking, undermining of democratic norms and attempts to rig the election. They deserve no sympathy from me and are, quite frankly, a danger to American democracy now. Only a few, like Mitt Romney, can hold their heads high.
And to be frank, it’s been coming for a while. Sarah Palin and the Tea Party Movement was a signal of the vacuous stupidity of where the Republicans were going a decade ago.
If you think this is not humble enough, then fine, but I’d argue it’s that precise ill focus on the wrongs of the Republicans which has allowed Trump to take hold of the Republicans. Stupid conspiracies like birtherism and Qanon have taken hold of a large number of the Republican base and this anti-democratic tendency has seen many see the need to storm the Capitol to change an election result.
I won’t apologise for not being politically correct and not holding opinions in equal esteem. Sure, conservatives raise valid arguments, ones I may disageree with, but I am not going to pretend that the hateful nonsense that large parts of the Republican Party has tied itself to is somehow palatable. If the Republicans are going to try and rig an election by casting doubt on an election, with no evidence to back it up, to get their way, go along with detention centres and support a corrupt, predatory goon with no respect for others then they can expect my ill judgement on them.
I will try to be understanding of others over this, but I don’t see how any proponent can sidestep that supporting the Republicans right now means supporting a party ad hoc to authoritarian tendencies.
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