Iron Bru › Forums › Non Football › You wouldn’t believe it › Reply To: You wouldn’t believe it
Why does this site need to gospel message spreading? It’s a football site and the points have been laboured by BPG on several occasions to no avail. BPG, JI, IronAge and others have found solace in their beliefs. That’s no issue for me. Yet the treatment of this site as a conversion ground for BPG grates and is unlikely to succeed.
A bit of a mixed response from me to the above, Sidey. First this side of the Forum isn’t a ‘football site’ but an alternative place to explore wide ranging and diverse ideas. Secondly I don’t see why the presentation of certain beliefs should be somehow taboo. There are relatively few threads based on or even including Christian context on here.. certainly in comparison to humanistic, atheistic or progressive perspectives. If we look back at the opening few posts on this thread it seems reasonable enough to me that Christians should be free to respond. Bill is clearly eager to share his perspective and hopefully win over some of his audience …which, I suggest, is not uncommon to other posters too. If he sincerely believes in his views then why wouldn’t he want to share them as others do? Having said all of that I recognise that its probably more the nature of Bill’s ‘gospel message spreading’ that has irked you a bit.
Where I understand how Bill’s approach ‘grates’ with you centres on your aversion to ‘Dogmatism.’ I find myself in agreement with you … with a qualifier to follow. If ‘Dogmatism’ is something like ‘the presentation of ones views as self evident and beyond reason or discussion’ then I am with you and also with others on the thread who have called out Gurney and others as well as the more dogmatic aspects of Bill’s approach. Being ‘Dogmatic’ is formulaic and lifeless to me and I prefer the creative and enriching willingness to have one’s ideas tested and refined. I reckon a good, and healthy, approach is to interrogate our own beliefs from time to time ..let alone being open to having them tested by others.
Where I depart from Bill is not in the content of his argument but rather that he seems to lapse into frustration and then resorts to the posting of those video clips which just annoy people and come across as ‘dogmatic.’ I also think that being sensitive to the audience and the essence of the topic rather than forcing the flow into ‘evangelistic statements’, however true they might or might not actually be, switches people off ..or irritates them to bits. This can then be interpreted as being ‘offended at the Gospel message’ when there is a fair chance that it’s actually being offended at the ‘dogmatic’ approach.
Having said all of that I refute any suggestion that holding to ‘a Dogma’ is being Dogmatic. It seems to be a very recent idea that its virtuous to have no solid convictions about ‘Truth’, especially in the Spiritual realm, and that if we do … then we should keep them to ourselves. I know its subtle .. but bear with me. Here goes.
It probably won’t surprise you that I am in agreement with Bill’s premise that subjective morality loses its anchor outside of an ideal, absolute authority ..that authority being God. That’s a dogma .. a dogma being a system of core beliefs in any political or religious system. (I think it is worth mentioning that Christian morality is anchored NOT in something beginning in first century Jerusalem but in the thousands of years of the Judeo-Christian teaching and ancient revelation. It’s interesting to note how even atheistic and agnostic commentators in recent years are starting to harmonise with the meaning behind Nietsches statement that ‘ God is dead ..and there will not be enough tears to wipe away the blood!’
I definitely do believe in the ‘Dogma’ or foundational principles of Christianity … ‘Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again.’ I hold as true the teaching that there is a transcendent Supreme being; that He is good and loving and longs for relationship with every person; that even though we enter the world with our spiritual faculties totally impaired they can be ‘switched on’ by a process of radical and humble seeking, called repentance, and all of this leading to the recognition that Jesus death and resurrection, at great cost, opens a way for us to enter this relationship.
That’s my sincere belief …. My dogma. Its undoubtedly offensive to many. It always has been .
What I want to avoid is forcing it into every discussion thread, giving the impression that I don’t care about the questions it presents to people and not knowing when to call a halt. Failure on those issues seems to me to carry the valid label of ‘dogmatic’ and leads to people being offended for reasons other than the intrinsic challenge of the message itself.
(A free beer to anyone who has read through this!! Now I’ ll have to see when I can get some time to answer Bill’s challenge)