Reply To: You wouldn’t believe it

[Siderite]

The problem I have with BPG’s argument about needing a god as moral arbiter is that it leaves humans justifying actions that harm others because ‘God says it’s right’. This is what allowed Christian zealots of the past to wage war and commit massacres through history. The retort is usually that these weren’t or aren’t true Christians, but these ‘not true Christians’ would say the same about those rejecting their methods, citing scripture to justify actions that harm others. A humanist perspective of basing moral decisions on the foundations of ‘the golden rule’, involving basing decisions on empathy, treating others how you would want to be treated, and realising such moral decisions can lead to advantageous outcomes for a peaceful life for yourself and everyone else can also form a moral bedrock. I don’t think such thinking is precluded from being a Christian; I would say that Christians who developed such positive morals in Christianity were (maybe unknowingly) dipping into such thought when ascribing them to God.

JI is right in pointing out to Gurny that moral issues exist outside of religion. Sometimes atheists can argue as if that without religion we’d have a moral utopia without irrationality. Yet, without religion, many still turn to nonsense pseudoscience and conspiracy theories like the idea that ancient aliens developed human society or that there is a Zionist occupation government that aims to control population numbers and dilute the blood of white people through immigration and mixed race marriages. These things do not necessarily require belief in God or religious belief. Also, there are other extreme ideologies that have caused misery through warfare and atrocities, such as fascism, Nazism and communism. The problem for me is dogmatism, which does include thinking along the lines of using morality as a means of being driven by God, but is not limited to that. Arguments from “God desires others to be treated lesser because they are of heretic or heathen beliefs” to “we need to root out the bourgeoisie and make them pay for causing the suffering of the workers” are both dogmatic ways of thinking that dehumanises others and causes oppression and suffering. Gurny’s posts neglect the need to be sceptical of ideology outside of religion and BPG does the opposite.

I would also say that BPG misunderstands the mindset of the zealot who justifies the deaths of others. The Nazis committed the Holocaust because they thought it was moral and they were doing humanity a favour by ridding the world of those who cause it harm. It doesn’t come about because of the lack of Christian belief, but because they are applying a similar dogmatic mindset to another ideology. A large part of the problem comes with moral certainties without due care for others and justifications based on ideology. Such ideological certainties can convince many that something which harms others is not such a big deal, because it suits those they care for, be it God, their favoured ‘race’ or the workers.

Of course there are more complexities in that some ideologies are worse than others, because their teachings have less going for them. Nazism is worse than Christianity, because the latter can provide teachings that can be positive while the former doesn’t, but both can encourage dogmatism and dogmatic/fundamentalist adherents to both would be convinced they are doing the right thing for humanity.

Tl;dr, for these reasons I do not have much time for arguments about morality being based around God, because that can be used to justify immoral behaviour which can be passed on, because God says it’s right. I would say that the good aspects of Christianity (yes, Gurny, I do think they exist) come from the human philosophy of seeing how you want to be treated and treating others the same with empathic thoughts. This basis can form moral systems that have developed globally and among many backgrounds, religions and non-religions. The only difference is that Christians link such morals to being guided or instilled by God. I have no issue with that, so long as they don’t start making comments about how without their religion there would be no moral framework or basis.