January 21, 2021 at 7:48 pm #201448
Trump has been a disaster. The Republicans should have steered well clear of him. But here’s the problem — whatever mine or anyone else’s views about Trump might be, the guy is unbelievably popular. Dangerously so in many ways. Trump’s claims about the election were ridiculous yet an unbelievable number of ordinary Americans genuinely agree with him.
Here is the basis for a grown-up and sensible discussion on an important issue but it won’t happen.
Why? Because on this board it’s become impossible to have a sensible discussion for the very reasons outlined by JI above.
The main problem is Gurnelista. He’s not interested in any form of debate. The only views he cares about are his own. Anyone who dissents becomes a target and being in Gurnelista’s sights is very unpleasant. The only reason he gets away with it is because those who control this board have allowed him to do so and he hides behind the coward’s mask of anonymity.
I don’t agree with a lot of JI’s views but in a true democracy he should be able to air them without getting the comments he does. The irony, of course, is that these comments come from those who claim to be the champions of democracy themselves.
This is the problem with Trump’s opponents. Instead of ridiculing him they need to listen to those who support him and find out why. I’m no great fan of Biden but he’s impressed me so far. I just hope he and his supporters listen to those behind Trump and address their concerns as well. If they don’t then I fear for the future.January 21, 2021 at 8:13 pm #201451BloodyRubbishIronParticipantOffline
Registered On: September 7, 2015
Yet far more voted for Biden, who won the popular vote by a larger margin for some time. Why is it that liberals must always learn to understand the right and not the other way round? When Trump won in 2016 the liberals should listen to Trump fans or else. When Trump loses they still must listen, but there’s no need for conservatives to do likewise!
The same geniuses spent the last four years telling everyone how Trump was going to win again because they haven’t listened to Trump concerns. Of course victory isn’t a foregone conclusion, and Democrats need to stay in touch, but this whole argument ignores the wackiness that has taken over the Republicans.
“I don’t agree with a lot of JI’s views but in a true democracy he should be able to air them without getting the comments he does. The irony, of course, is that these comments come from those who claim to be the champions of democracy themselves.”
I’ve put it as fair and reasonable as possible. I have no qualms with people thinking differently, but the fact of the matter is that the Republican Party has gone off the rails and have excused election rigging, detention centres and countless undermining of democratic norms. This is not the fault of the left, but the right.
It’s a bit ironic for you to complain about opposing views being accepted when anyone criticising right wing viewpoints gets chastised as being duplicitous, bitter, part of some left wing hive mind or whatever. Yes, Gurnelista’s ridiculous conspiracies about Lesgeo are irritating and unfair, but that doesn’t excuse you aping his tactics against everyone.
What concerns should we address? That Obama was a secret Muslim from Kenya out to enforce socialism? That Hillary Clinton runs a child paedophile ring from a pizza shop and the mysterious ‘Q’ was out to expose them?
Now, I am not saying every Republican thinks like this, I am not claiming JI subscribes to this wackiness, but this is what the Republican Party as it stands has pandered to and a large chunk of their base is of this view. How far do we go with understanding? If an Islamic democracy views to stone women to death for adultery or behead gays may be a popular view among many. I’d argue that it’d be ridiculous to see the real concern as being those who want to stand against such nonsense and may hold little respect for such views, rather than the salt of the Earth Islamic man who thinks unpardonable sin is being committed and needs dealing with severely. Yes, that is not the position of the American Republican, but I think there are clear signs that many are now radicalised. This is not the fault of the left for standing against it, but those who have encouraged it, which is the right.
You seem ok when people call out leftist wrongs, as was definitely the case under Corbyn, but if someone dares criticise Brexit or conservative political parties you’re here to say criticism is unfair.
In a true democracy JI is free to get criticism. Some may go too far, and I think many do (certainly Gurnelista), but some might argue that’s the price to pay for free speech. You don’t get your viewpoints cosseted from criticism, even unfair. Don’t like it? Kim Jong-Un runs a country where people can get to air their opinions without criticism, as is apparent in a truly democratic process, supposedly. They even have Democratic in their country’s nameJanuary 21, 2021 at 8:47 pm #201455
‘I just hope he and his supporters listen to those behind Trump and address their concerns as well. If they don’t then I fear for the future.’
Do you mean like Ted Cruz who thinks the Paris Climate Agreement is about pollution effecting Parisians? If this is what a Republican Senator thinks, what does that say about Trump supporters in general? What do you think we should be listening too? Madness?January 21, 2021 at 8:48 pm #201457
Nice tweet Sen. Cruz! Quick question: do you also believe the Geneva Convention was about the views of the citizens of Geneva?
Asking for everyone who believes US Senators should be competent and not undermine our elections to incite insurrection against the United States https://t.co/mMf8iDo72G
— Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (@AOC) January 21, 2021January 21, 2021 at 9:19 pm #201463
“I don’t agree with a lot of JI’s views but in a true democracy he should be able to air them without getting the comments he does. The irony, of course, is that these comments come from those who claim to be the champions of democracy themselves”.
Bucks – you need to be a bit more specific on who you are talking about.
To help you out a bit, I have never claimed to be a champion of democracy, I have the same rights to provide comments on JI’s posts as you do, I have never questioned JI’s rights to post on here, and lastly, I can assure you that I am NOT absolutely pathetic!!!January 21, 2021 at 9:32 pm #201465BloodyRubbishIronParticipantOffline
Registered On: September 7, 2015
As an aside, I do apologise, JI, if you feel I have been harsh. I don’t judge you as a person. I hold you yo no real malice and I don’t think of you as nasty or anything. However, I reserve my right to make criticism of what I see as an party in ill health democratically and the need to call out problematic elements.
People have agency and are free to be criticised for their decisions, and it certainly isn’t anti-democratic to do so as Bucks suggests.
I think it would have been better if people didn’t act hostile towards you for the purposes of debate. My Israel comment was not a dig in any way, it was meant to be neutral in an presumption based on prior knowledge.
I won’t apologise for not being PC in treating opinions as worthy of full respect, but I respect your right to hold them. I welcome differing opinions, so long as there are no complaints at criticism of it (which no-one is free from, not myself either). Maybe I have not lived up to my standards, but I do try, and I hope you can see that I am not trying to make out you are evil. I am just making criticism of what I see as incorrect opinions and the problematic nature among conservatives.
And I am not blind to problems on the left, but this isn’t very relevant here.January 22, 2021 at 7:20 am #201467SideriteParticipantOffline
Registered On: December 12, 2014
Bucks: People calling for threads to be locked are censorious and against democracy!
Bucks: People commenting on threads should be protected from rude responses!
Hmmmm. :-)January 22, 2021 at 1:56 pm #201486
One rule for him and other rules for the rest. Wonder where he gets it from!!January 22, 2021 at 2:05 pm #201488
The disparaging remarks are building up. Just spotted Bucks out the saloon window, strutting down the road with a scowl on his fizzog. Expect those doors to be blasted open soon….January 22, 2021 at 7:23 pm #201516TwoWrightsParticipantOffline
Registered On: December 23, 2013
Calamity Jane?! ;-)January 22, 2021 at 7:47 pm #201519XxxParticipantOffline
Registered On: May 27, 2017
The disparaging remarks are building up. Just spotted Bucks out the saloon window, strutting down the road with a scowl on his fizzog. Expect those doors to be blasted open soon….
Somebody trying to pick a fight yet again have you spoke to heath he might not agreeJanuary 22, 2021 at 7:49 pm #201520XxxParticipantOffline
Registered On: May 27, 2017
Yes he does suprise supriseJanuary 22, 2021 at 10:56 pm #201536
Hi BRI .. I wanted to make a more personal response to you but, with no other possibility, it will have to be public. I want to assure you that I have always found you reasoned and courteous and did not have any issue with your reply on that score. I was, in fact, a bit uncomfortable that I hadn’t made myself clear when I expressed disappointment and was getting round to coming back on when I saw your latest post. My disappointment was solely that you hadn’t asked me to give reasons as to why I leaned towards the Republicans. Certainly the Israel stuff was one of several factors and it was certainly not unreasonable, given our previous exchanges, for you to highlight that. It was simply because there were a number of other compelling reasons why I would have made that voting choice.
On a more general issue and for the wider ‘audience’ … I don’t think Siderite’s implied criticism of BI above really holds up as clearly as it might seem. I think it is reasonable to stand for freedom of speech and democratic principles and yet also to entertain the fact that it might be necessary to ‘draw a line.’ I think most mature societies wrestle with the dilemma of where to draw the line on what people are free to say and how they say it. With regard to this board I reckon 90% or more of my relatively few postings over the years have been calling for posters to steer away from personal insults, manipulative tactics and rushing to judgment. I don’t think I could be much clearer on this than my post above. I enjoy visiting this site but would enjoy it far more if some, and Gurney in particular, didn’t resort to mockery and, quite hypocritically in light of what he purports to stand for, manipulative tactics. The failure by other board members, other than one or two, to call this out and ‘clean it up’ by peer pressure is regrettable to me. As someone once said to me on one of my previous ‘lectures’ on this subject … ‘Well you could just ignore it!’ My answer to that is that it’s not actually possible to stay engaged and at the same time to resist the temptation to become embroiled in ugly ‘ego wars’ which is not my cuppa. Another suggestion is that ‘If you can’t stand the heat then get out of the kitchen!’ And that is actually what I do and will continue to do every time I dip in and find that same toxic strand still there. And that does diminish the potential of this board. Maybe I did have something to say on the Republican perspective which would have shed some light on why so many Americans voted as they did without coming across as ignorant, a right wing Christian, a bigot, shallow, sick or evil. But because of all of the above I’m not happy to explore that with you and I probably lose something in that choice … but the forum might have lost too.
1 user thanked author for this post.January 22, 2021 at 11:35 pm #201539
‘The failure by other board members, other than one or two, to call this out and ‘clean it up’ by peer pressure is regrettable to me. As someone once said to me on one of my previous ‘lectures’ on this subject … ‘Well you could just ignore it!’ My answer to that is that it’s not actually possible to stay engaged and at the same time to resist the temptation to become embroiled in ugly ‘ego wars’ which is not my cuppa.’
The ‘ignore it’ was one of mine. And I still advise it. It’s the approach I take to comments by xxx. It is possible to still engage with others on the board though JI and I hope you will continue to do so. I enjoyed our discussion on religion very much.
I will say though that I think ‘failure’ of some posters to police is a bit harsh. There’s many things that aren’t ideal on any forum but to blame that on other posters isn’t really fair in my opinion. That said, sincerely hope you stay around and chew the cud.January 23, 2021 at 1:02 am #201543
Thanks Deerey. Appreciated.
I do remember our exchange on religion quite well. To be honest I felt a bit hesitant in going there and recall being really surprised at the openness and honesty in your approach. One of the highlights of my time on here to be fair. I may be wrong but I vaguely recall that you have relatives who have a religious faith and you have a lot of time for them as people. I could be mistaken on that.
As for the other stuff. I’ve said a lot on that .. and about Gurney’s choices especially .. so maybe enough is enough and I shouldn’t dump expectations on others. I sometimes wish that some of us could actually meet. Keyboarding is all well and good but it’s actually one dimensional. I suspect that in the face of a real human being there would be a little bit less vitriol all round.January 23, 2021 at 10:49 am #201556
Seems to me the poster doth complain too much.
Lack of debate and engagement? Look back at Gurney’s posts. Just click on the screen-name.
Lack of debate? Justles, you’ve again failed to explain why Trump’s 4 years of racism, misogyny, hatred and lies would be worth supporting again.
And why not take up the invite elsewhere on here, to discuss the advantages of Brexit?
Those who complain most about being mocked and satirised – and there are only 2 or 3 – are the very same ones who use the board to gaslight and push their propaganda and fake news. Zapatero, a tus zapatos! (People in glass houses…)January 23, 2021 at 11:39 am #201561NorthumbironParticipantOffline
Registered On: January 3, 2014
I didn’t particularly want Jeremy Corbyn for PM but still voted Labour at the last General Election.
Likewise I have friends who voted Conservative (yes, I do have friends who aren’t Marxist) but think Johnson is a blithering idiot.
Depends whether you’re voting for party or personality. Personalities come and go. Parties generally have a lengthier lifespan.
Also, the leader is there to serve the party (and in turn the country) not the other way round. Big egos and personal agendas are bound to cause problems. Leaders like Trump will always divide the electorate more than a less colourful character (George W Bush?). The grey suited PMs of post war Britain didn’t really divide opinion the way that Maggie Thatcher or Tony Blair did.
Unfortunately the 21st Century has become the age of the celebrity, so I expect we’ll get more cartoon characters like Trump and Johnson appearing on the political horizon in the future.
Ultimately they are still answerable to the electorate but more often than not they provide the smoke and mirrors to deflect from what is happening in the background.
That’s what we need to be aware of.
1 user thanked author for this post.January 23, 2021 at 5:30 pm #201602
Hi Gurnelista ol’ pal. I thought I’d offer a word of advice to help you out. Take a piece of A4 paper and a fairly thick felt tip. Write on the paper, in as big and as clear letters as will fit, the following ….
DON’T EXPECT A DISCUSSION WITH THE MAN WHO ONLY HAS ANSWERS.
ENGAGE WITH ONE WHO ALSO HAS QUESTIONS.
Then take the paper and place it in a prominent place, say near the bathroom sink, and then work at trying to grasp its meaning several times a day until enlightenment comes.
( To try to help you further … this does not refer to rhetorical questions. You won’t make any progress if you get into confusion about questions posed to lure out and expose the Jonnies, right wingers, gaslighters, Christian fundies and Doppelgangers to the acerbic wit and superior wisdom of their betters … such as ‘El Gurnelista.’ Failing that ..if you are genuinely unable to rise to the challenge of seeing that reality may not actually be uniform and orderly and simplistic but actually rather complex and even paradoxical at times … and probably only successfully explored in the company of a range of companions carrying a rich variety of perspectives .. then I have another suggestion. Why not, instead of using your commendable linguistic ability only at the end of your posts, write the whole lot in Spanish? That way, at least for folks like me, with our limited intellectual and linguistic skills and dubious morality, we won’t have to deal with the nausea that arises from trying scale the dizzy heights, with accompanying altitude sickness, which are the natural habitat of ‘El Gurnelista’ .. blessed be his name.January 23, 2021 at 6:39 pm #201612
Gurnelista, I can take insults, rudeness, being mocked and satire but I draw the line at any comments that weaponise mental health, deaths from covid and personal comments about my family, all of which you’ve been guilty of. You’ve also made highly accusatorial and personal comments about other posters without any evidence whatever to back them up.
Nobody is asking anyone to call out Gurnelista for his views and opinions to which he’s every bit as entitled as I am to mine. I do, however, pity anyone who feels it is remotely acceptable for another poster to make personal comments about mental health, covid deaths and family along with serious and very personal accusations against another poster who has done nothing other than express their own perfectly legal views.
For those complaining that I’m not being specific about whom I’m referring to, with the exception of BRI I remember every single one of you thanking Gurnelista on numerous occasions in the past, which reveals a great deal.January 23, 2021 at 6:54 pm #201613
Bi, you come on here, flinging your crap around like a Tory jihadi on a dirty protest, then when it comes back in kind you wail like a baby, get out your sick note and play the victim.
It’s classic, attention-seeking narcissism. We’ve seen it over and over, for years in fact. And the only time depression gets a mention is when you bring it up yourself.
Let’s face it, on any topic we know what you’re going to say before you say it. So, here’s an idea. In future, you should join a thread by merely putting a little tick next to a post you agree with, and a little cross against something you disagree with.
That way, you could comment cleanly and so preserve the decencies, while simultaneously caring for the environment. A win-win.
1 user thanked author for this post.January 23, 2021 at 8:17 pm #201619January 23, 2021 at 9:15 pm #201628NorthumbironParticipantOffline
Registered On: January 3, 2014
I suspect the return of the “thanks” button is of greater issue than Gurney’s posts
1 user thanked author for this post.January 23, 2021 at 9:38 pm #201629TwoWrightsParticipantOffline
Registered On: December 23, 2013
“For those complaining that I’m not being specific about whom I’m referring to, with the exception of BRI I remember every single one of you thanking Gurnelista on numerous occasions in the past, which reveals a great deal.”
I’m very certain at one time or another I’ve ‘thanked’ a post by every single poster on here, yourself included. If I find a post worthy of a thank I’ll ‘thank’ it, be it by Gurnelista, Adolf Hitler or Boris Johnson, if you don’t like this fact, tough. One could be forgiven for thinking the impression you’re giving is that every poster, bar one, has thanked Gurnelista for a post when he’s attacked your mental health, family, or friend that died of Covid. Of course this is wrong, but this reveals a very great deal about supercilious you.January 24, 2021 at 12:13 am #201631
Well, ‘thanksgate’ is well and truly back! Just as BRI predicted. Ennio Moricone sound track and everything 😀January 24, 2021 at 11:36 am #201647
“Bi, you come on here, flinging your crap around like a Tory jihadi on a dirty protest, then when it comes back in kind you wail like a baby, get out your sick note and play the victim.”
There you go again, Gurnelista, weaponising mental health. You couldn’t be further from the truth but then truth is something you don’t understand. I’ve NEVER raised clinical depression as a ‘sick note, nor to position myself as a ‘victim’ nor to seek any sympathy. In fact the complete opposite. I’ve raised it because it needs to be out in the open to counter idiots like you who stigmatise mental health.
But, of course, I’m a Tory, which in your eyes makes me a legitimate target for your sick comments. Of course Heath thanks you but he’s made similar references very recently so no surprises there. Quite frankly you deserve each other.January 24, 2021 at 12:17 pm #201652
“I’ve NEVER raised clinical depression as a ‘sick note, nor to position myself as a ‘victim’ nor to seek any sympathy”.
You are joking aren’t you? I’ve concluded that given the tone of your posts and name calling anybody who doesn’t share your stupid opinions, you deserve everything you get.
You continue to call people including me pathetic, but then cry like a baby when you get a bit of abuse back.
As I’ve told you before, I don’t know you or your medical condition. Not interested. It’s your choice to come on here winding people up all the time and refusing to debate any of the issues raised on here. All threads end the same, it’s all about you.
Whether you are seeking sympathy or not, I couldn’t give a toss. There are a lot of people that I know and care for before you. Like me, you are just a vacant avatar on a lower league football forum.January 24, 2021 at 12:56 pm #201655Iron-aweParticipantOffline
Registered On: June 21, 2017
you are just a vacant avatar on a lower league football forum.
Johnny Rotten may even say ” Pretty Vacant ”January 24, 2021 at 1:00 pm #201656
You got a bit of a man crush on pretty vacant Bucks?January 24, 2021 at 3:09 pm #201658Iron-aweParticipantOffline
Registered On: June 21, 2017
You got a bit of a man crush on pretty vacant Bucks?
Think I’d rather crush a grape like good old Stu Francis.January 25, 2021 at 9:55 am #201674
After the crazed, self-obsessed rants and lies above, it reminded me of the ex-POTUS, and his record-breaking ‘moonshot’ of mis-speaking during his presidency: 30,000 lies in 4 years! How will his fans feel, if Biden starts telling the truth?
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