October 21, 2020 at 12:17 pm #196283billpuntonsghostParticipantOffline
Registered On: January 4, 2014
The Equalities Minister gave a speech in Parliament yesterday which showed some politicians have their finger on the pulse. Just noticed it’s been put on YouTube. Well worth a look unless you heard about it on the BBC- no neither did I !!! Who would have believed that,eh.October 21, 2020 at 1:21 pm #196288
I think there are far more newsworthy items the BBC are bothered with than prioritising this obscure piece of culture war nonsense.October 21, 2020 at 9:28 pm #196332
For me, she lost any credibility whatsoever as soon as she said ‘anti-capitalist BLM movement’. Next.October 21, 2020 at 9:44 pm #196334
Thanks BPG. Hadn’t noticed it. I wasn’t surprised, Deerey, that you hadn’t seen ..or see no problem with ….the proliferation of evidence that BLM has an anti-Capitalist agenda. I was a little more surprised, BRI, that you were so dismissive. Happy to dip my toes in and have a chat .. unless, of course, the only show in town is ideological outrage or a rapid descent into sneering and name calling. Then, as always, I’ll be on my way and leave you to it.October 21, 2020 at 10:07 pm #196336
Fine JI. I’d be very interested to see the evidence that BLM movement has an anti-capitalist agenda if you’d care to elaborate?October 21, 2020 at 10:13 pm #196337
Forgive me if you think I’ve misunderstood this, but I was under the impression that the BLM movement was driven by issues of inequality, not issues with the prevailing economic system?October 21, 2020 at 10:21 pm #196338
I too think it would be appreciated if we could have a reasonable discussion on this matter without any sneering, ideological outrage or name calling. I’d also appreciate it JI if you sustained your involvement in this discussion if that does happen and didn’t leave, to the loss of those willing to have a rational debate.October 22, 2020 at 8:36 am #196344
Thanks BPG. Hadn’t noticed it. I wasn’t surprised, Deerey, that you hadn’t seen ..or see no problem with ….the proliferation of evidence that BLM has an anti-Capitalist agenda. I was a little more surprised, BRI, that you were so dismissive. Happy to dip my toes in and have a chat .. unless, of course, the only show in town is ideological outrage or a rapid descent into sneering and name calling. Then, as always, I’ll be on my way and leave you to it.
I am dismissive of the idea that the lack of coverage from the BBC means anything. It’s hardly breaking news, so the sneer at the BBC for not covering it is unfounded. There are far more pressing issues than the online culture wars.
As for ‘criticial race theory,’ I’d argue that it does have a place in schools given the focus on ending racism and that this is one proposed idea of ending it. However, it needs to be taught fully, including the flaws for it to have merit. I have huge question marks over its effectiveness and it shouldn’t be taught to kids as the only solution.
BLM are hard to define; most of it is not centralised. Much of it is a vague gathering of people supporting an end to racism against blacks in authority. Of course many of them will be of a left leaning orientation, but there is minimal meaningful structure to them. There are groups who call themselves BLM, without being affiliated to every protester there, even the major ones. From looking at the British group it seems that the people involved with the formalised group are SWP affiliated, so it wouldn’t be unfair to label them as anti-capitalist. The problem is that they only speak for themselves, not every protester as a whole, who follow protests which are more organic. The problem, of course, is that this lack of centralised structure allows groups to form who claim to speak on everyone’s behalf and this creates the impression that it is all about the formed group’s ideology.October 22, 2020 at 8:54 am #196345
If that’s true about the SWP in the UK, and perhaps BLM in other countries attracting far left groups, that doesn’t give the wider movement an ‘anti-capitalist agenda’. It’s a convenient and cynical trope to undermine and discredit the whole movement. It’s rubbish, like saying the Tories have an ERG agenda or UKIP had a fascist agenda, even though there are / were influential factions within them.October 22, 2020 at 9:19 am #196346
It’s not definitive, but this fellar who is involved with the BLM UK website is a known SWP activist:
When the website of an organisation which calls itself BLM, but is by no means the definitive voice of every BLM activist, is being developed I am suspicious. Especially given that front groups has long been a tactic of the SWP. Stop the War, Unite Against Fascism and Stand up to Racism are known fronts and they tend to poison the causes they stand for with their ideology, which is what they truly care about. Their motive seems to be make everyone think they’re on the side of social justice to lure them into the revolution.October 22, 2020 at 9:46 am #196347NorthumbironParticipantOffline
Registered On: January 3, 2014
Ms Badenoch and some on here have a misguided view on how history is taught in schools and colleges in the 21st century.October 22, 2020 at 10:03 am #196348
I’m waiting for Les’s “proliferation of evidence of BLM’s anti-capitalist agenda”.
If neutralizing prejudice and racially motivated violence by the police and others is anti-capitalist, then where does that leave you, Les?October 22, 2020 at 10:08 am #196350
How so? Personally, I am not very concerned about it being taught, because it isn’t, so far as I am aware. Teachers will be teaching about racism, I’m sure, but they’re not teaching ‘white privilege’ and shaming white pupils for being advantaged in a racial power dynamic, as the perpetually worried and culture warriors fear.
Should it be taught in schools? It shouldn’t be taught as the solution which we must abide by. I would have little issue if it was taught in an A level or GCSE Philosophy course, since it is a product of modern academics (not a dig), so it would be worth evaluating its merits and pitfalls as a means of improving Philosophy students’ critical thinking capabilities for evaluating theories.
This whole thing reeks of hysteria and reminds me of right wing paranoia about sex education, where they think hardcore sex moves are being taught to ten year olds when they say we should make sex education more of a focus at school, when the focus may be very vague talk of relationships without much talk about the birds and the bees.October 22, 2020 at 10:20 am #196353
I’m waiting for Les’s “proliferation of evidence of BLM’s anti-capitalist agenda”.
If neutralizing prejudice and racially motivated violence by the police and others is anti-capitalist, then where does that leave you, Les?
I suspect JI, not Les, has concerns because of the BLM UK group which does seem to be anti-capitalist, SWP affiliation or not. I think it would be unfair to label JI as against neutralising prejudice and racism because of concerns over a movement’s motives and justifications which exist outside of the racial element. I am not for the group Unite Against Fascism, despite me being against fascism; this doesn’t make me opposed to opposing fascism because I doubt the motives of UAF.October 22, 2020 at 10:30 am #196354
Well, let’s see what he has to say.
By the way, I agree it reeks of hysteria and paranoia about sex education, etc. BRI.
But that’s not all. Getting the proles to fight among themselves in so-called ‘culture wars’ over, for example, Me2, BLM, fear of immigration, Islam, gays, the environment, abortion, and of course ‘an anti-capitalist agenda’, is an old tactic. How about trade unions? I wonder if that still works.
No, these are just red herrings. They’re a distraction away from government’s colossal ineptitude. They keep the Tories in power and maintain inequality and injustice.
Instead, we should shine the spotlight on those who point the finger and claim these deadly herrings are a mortal threat to their way of life.
So, we see justles still banging that flaky old drum over immigration, race, nationalism… but we alao remember the support for one of the nastiest, racist, two-faced politicians seen since Oswald Mosely in this country, while copy-pasting some of the most ridiculous website material ever seen on IB.
Just look at this widely repeated lie posted on here on December 10th 2015:
“Turkey will soon join the EU. One careful newspaper poll found that 12 million Turks are considering coming to the UK. Inside the EU, even if only 20% true this cannot be prevented.”
All complete rubbish. And, how can something even be “20% true”?
We haven’t forgotten either, the support for that conscience-free, sociopathic narcissist. No, not Bucksiron, but the one in the White House, as well as for those disgusting racist, quasi-religious websites whose material was copied on here a while back.
And, all that other guff about full-time support for the law… so what about some criticism of that incompetent, Eton educated journalist-liar who repeatedly breaks it, eh?
Time and time again … not just wrong, but foolish! Witness the multiple messageboard names donning them like some kind of Halloween mask. My God, there are some confessions to make here.
Really, he should stick to self-publishing, and given the season, ghost-writing.October 22, 2020 at 10:33 am #196355
Gurney wrote : ‘ I’m waiting for Les’s “proliferation of evidence of BLM’s anti-capitalist agenda”.
If neutralizing prejudice and racially motivated violence by the police and others is anti-capitalist, then where does that leave you, Les?’
Thanks for the above Deerey and BRI. Appreciate the invitation. I guess some of the ensuing insights and reasoned exchanges vindicate my initial post.
Regrettably Gurney, as the above reveals, wasn’t able to rise to the challenge. I recall one or two others feeling disquiet about this persistent sneery name calling. The whole tone of the posting quashes any faint hope I might have had that I would be comfortable making my contribution.October 22, 2020 at 12:43 pm #196361HeathParticipantOffline
Registered On: August 5, 2017
So what, exactly, was your point JI?October 22, 2020 at 1:00 pm #196362
I’m sure you’ll agree JI that Gurney is entitled to air his views, whether the association of you to Les is accurate or not. It’s a shame you can’t simply ignore him and engage in dialogue about another subject that you clearly have opinions on. In doing so I feel you’re denying others an opportunity to have a sensible discussion with you about it.
BRI, yes of course, the SWP have a long history of latching on to movements over the years and hijacking them with anti-capitalist motives. In simplistic terms though, that absolutely doesn’t mean the whole BLM movement has an ‘anti-capitalist agenda’. That’s why I take issue with Badenoch’s misleading association and with JI’s ‘agenda’ comment.
Unfortunately we’re living in an age where soundbites and tropes are king, and those few words subtley dropped here and there have replaced a lot of time presenting and understanding full arguments. It happens on the left, I’m not denying that, but the right certainly seem to have the upper hand exploiting it. Now, I’m not implying that’s what JI was attempting, I can’t possibly know that, but the more ‘anti capitalist BLM’ is quoted without any explanation for it, the more it will just become accepted, in turn undermining it’s importance rooted in inequality.
Finally, does someone want to tell those Premiership players taking the knee that they are supporting an anti-capitalist movement? I jest, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some forces that be are already doing that.October 22, 2020 at 2:01 pm #196365HeathParticipantOffline
Registered On: August 5, 2017
God forbid those horrible anti-capitalist types and bless the racists.
For the last 10 years the poor in our society have got poorer, wages have stalled and millions of children are living in poverty.
We have been told that there’s no money by our capitalist leaders who have magically found 230 billion in 7 months. Where’s the outrage from the capatalist Bucks about who’s going to pay for it?
Yet our resident preacher doesn’t mention any of the above. His big concern is about what news stories are featured on the BBC and history lessons in schools.
He’s no better or Christian than the automatic gun toting USA Trump supporting hillbillies who are getting read to take out the Liberals and BLM if they come to town.October 22, 2020 at 2:12 pm #196367
I think that the above discourse is robust, intelligent and informative on the whole. So why am I out? Let me respond to Deerey’s challenge for me to dismiss Gurney’s association of me with another poster. First of all this is not me saying that Gurney isn’t entitled to his views. What I can’t tolerate is his attributing someone else’s views to me … even your statement ‘whether the association of you to Les is accurate or not’ shows that a seed of doubt on that matter hangs in the air. How would it sit with you Deerey .. or BRI .. or anyone else to be linked with another poster whose views you know nothing about? In the lengthy post above I am referred to as JustLes and then vilified for comments on immigration, race and nationalism. Somehow, in my ‘dual identity’, I am to be associated with Oswald Mosley, the cutting and pasting of dodgy websites and the promotion of sensationalist articles (from five years back!!) about a wave of Turkish immigration to the UK! To me this is contemptible and simply an attempt to shut down someone that Gurney has taken an intense dislike to. I have been at least as open as any other poster on the forum about my background and views … including our work for two years with Bosnian Moslem refugees both here and in the camps and our adoption of a young Vietnamese girl trafficked into the Uk .. so I refuse to ‘entitle’ Gurney to any of his inferences regarding support for racism or racially motivated violence. He should hang his head at resorting to this infantile strategy just because he can’t fit me into his rigid ideological narrative. When the discussions around ‘straw manning’, ‘whataboutery’ and ‘gaslighting’ surface again I trust that you will recall this particularly obnoxious strategy by Gurney that ensures that my undoubtedly flawed perspectives don’t get aired on the forum.October 22, 2020 at 3:42 pm #196378NorthumbironParticipantOffline
Registered On: January 3, 2014
How so? Personally, I am not very concerned about it being taught, because it isn’t, so far as I am aware.
For a long while now the teaching of history has been not so much about, “here are the facts”, as “here’s where to look for the facts”. Now make your own mind up.
In 2002 I did a post graduate diploma in history at Oxford University. In the first unit a lot of the myths around history were debunked. In fact we were told that you cannot “teach” history, you can only “record” it. Of course you can only record what you see, what you have been told or what you have read. Recording what you have been told or read is fraught with errors. Who has written this history? What sort of readership is it aimed at? And more importantly who is sponsoring the book? Early histories of England were commissioned by the monarchy to substantiate their claim to the throne. Anyone who writes a history book has an agenda. You cannot write impartially no matter how hard you try. I know I have done it.
Here is a prime example from a book that used to belong to my grandfather. It dates from the mid 1930s and is called “How much do you know”. It would have been one of a set of volumes (think Readers Digest). In the chapter on “Our Wonderful World” is a paragraph titled – “Why is the white race dominant?” I quote: –
“The white race is the most versatile, has the most initiative, a greater faculty for organisation, and a more practical outlook on life. This has led to its mastery of the material side of living, urged it to invention and discovery, and to the development of industry, commerce and science. It has had the advantage also of living for the most part in temperate climes, where the struggle for existence has neither been too difficult nor too easy. The black race, enervated by the heat of the tropics, has never shown any great capacity for sustained or combined effort.”
This of course says nothing about “The Black Race”, but a lot about the author of the piece and how he doesn’t fancy having to do manual work at 30 degrees Celsius!
It would be totally unacceptable today and for good reason, but as a historical document recording attitudes prevalent before WWII it is an interesting read.
So the link in the OP is really a non-story as it is just one MP’s take on what is an important National issue, but one that cannot be quantified on such basic terms.
Pupils and students must be encouraged to form their own opinions. The danger is when these opinions come from selected sources or biased viewpoints, which is what happened in the past.
Unfortunately it is still happening today!October 22, 2020 at 5:04 pm #196388
At the end of the day, it’s just a forum JI. Personally, if someone was incorrectly associating me with another poster under a duplicate account, I’d simpy just say it wasn’t true and carry on a dialogue with others who wanted to have a meaningful discussion. But that’s just me. I don’t quite understand why you’ve retreated from numerous discussions of a political nature as soon as Gurney posts these claims. You clearly have some things you’d like to say but are at the stage now of almost inviting him in. Ah well, and so it goes…October 22, 2020 at 8:40 pm #196400
I can see your point Deerey. I guess we’re all different. One of my personal dislikes is the way that, in general, our capacity as a society to disagree without becoming personal and nasty seems to have deteriorated. Hence my constant appeal in previous and more regular visits to the forum to be less scathing when someone has a strongly different perspective. Only Gurney knows why he has adopted this particular childish and obnoxious strategy. He is clearly educated, well read and reasonably articulate. He shouldn’t need to resort to vindictive nonsense ..but he does. I do hope that when his new egalitarian world has dawned he is not my interrogator .. or at least that kindness, forbearance and tolerance of difference has become ‘compulsory.’October 24, 2020 at 10:48 am #196483
I’m not going to get in to your relationship with Gurney on this forum JI. However, I am quite keen to respond to this:
‘One of my personal dislikes is the way that, in general, our capacity as a society to disagree without becoming personal and nasty seems to have deteriorated. Hence my constant appeal in previous and more regular visits to the forum to be less scathing when someone has a strongly different perspective.’
On face value that all sounds reasonable. But unfortunately I think it amounts to invalidating anyone’s argument as soon as they become animated and passionate about a subject. For instance, I think there’s a danger of mistakenly equating ‘right to reply’ with ‘now you’re getting personal’. You mention ‘ideological outrage’ in a previous post as though to be annoyed about an ideology is somehow wrong and illegitimises the posters argument. I suspect you have an argument about the BLM movement that centres on movement infiltration, riots and statistics that ultimately undermines the cause, but hey, you’ve decided it’s time to vanish again. A pattern has emerged.October 24, 2020 at 11:35 am #196487
One last thing. Something else has been gnawing away. It’s this:
‘our work for two years with Bosnian Moslem refugees both here and in the camps and our adoption of a young Vietnamese girl trafficked into the Uk’
Yes, I believe you have mentioned this before. And yet, you protest about not getting ‘personal’. Seems an odd thing to repeat in that regard, I feel. I suspect this could be a pre-cursor to those views you yourself have described as ‘challenging’ to posters on here. And again, it’s so frustrating, because yet again we are denied an opportunity to view them because of things Gurney has said.
When I was at school, one thing I found really annoying was when the whole year was chastised and punished because of one or two troublemakers. Funnily enough, the teachers approach didn’t improve the behaviour of the culprits but quite a few of the year turned on them. I was more annoyed with the teachers unfairness than with the culprits with the issues.October 24, 2020 at 1:50 pm #196508
As DM points out, this isn’t about shutting down discussion. Les would have it that anybody should be able to put forward any kind of view, no matter how outrageous, and have it met with calm and respect.
So, for example, let’s float the idea that black people aren’t disadvantaged or that the holocaust didn’t happen, or slavery wasn’t so bad. Let’s offer up for appraisal websites carrying the most disgusting far-right views on the pretext that they’re coming from a respectable, religious family man.
Les does this because he knows very well this is an effective way to press the buttons of the racists and nationalists and effectively rouse the rabble. It’s how Farage got started. Political populism at its worst.
Instead, let’s have a calm discussion about the way some come on here to manipulate social media and public opinion with multiple screen names, even though the usual pre-occupations of race, nationalism, immigration and religion carry the familiar fingerprints.
And let’s talk about how they use distractions – red herrings – to gain popularity and avoid addressing the real problems people face over health and social care, unemployment, housing, proper investment in the economy and society, and a real will to promote equality of opportunity.
Let’s talk too, about bringing back decent values in politics and government, like honesty, yes, remember that, HONESTY, instead of government which creates a climate in which many think it’s ok to be racist, a government which repeatedly breaks the law, lies to the public and is personally responsible for thousands of avoidable deaths.
Come on Les, try selling this with a straight face to the great bru-ish public instead of clinging to the carcass of Brexit, foreigners, immigration, Catholicism……..
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.