February 7, 2019 at 7:55 pm #137131
Since the 2016 EU referendum, the UN and the Home Office has reported an increase in racist incidents. Hardly a week passes without a new incident in football arising, involving either fans or players. Has the referendum result given people a licence to be publicly racist? I think it has but I’d be interested in hearing what others think. Also, do you think a similar amount of racism was occuring before the result, but not reported by the victims and the media? I’m less sure about that. Hats off to Max Bell for whistle blowing at the weekend btw. It takes some courage and will to do that.February 7, 2019 at 8:03 pm #137135
Racism has certainly increased in the Labour party, Deerey. I suppose that’s down to Brexit as well?February 7, 2019 at 8:17 pm #137138
We’re not all starting posts with ulterior motives Bucks. My questions are genuine borne out of the latest Sophie Jones and Barnsley incidents. I look forward to some sensible debate from others.
Just to add, do you think you could keep on topic Bucks (i.e. increased racism in football)? Happy to discuss racism in the Labour Party elsewhere. Thank you.February 7, 2019 at 8:40 pm #137145
Been thanked: 399 times
It’s not increased in the Tory party, it’s a requirement.
I personally think the ability to convey it has increased , it never went away it just became difficult to say or see. Social media and camera phones just expose it more v easily.February 7, 2019 at 9:04 pm #137148
No, it never went away, I agree. Interesting how people seem oblivious to being banged to rights by social media and phones. Suppose that’s just part of their nasty ignorance. The only good thing I can see is that the perpertrators of the increased reported incidents in the UK are more vociferously stamped on more than they used to be (or so it appears to me). There’s some hope for society, right there.February 7, 2019 at 10:46 pm #137159
It’s never gone away, absolutely, it’s just resurfaced more since the vote IMO. People seem more vocal since the vote, like it gave them a green light to use it more because we voted out. Does seem crazy and how can the colour of someone’s skin be a justification for hate? I also notice a lot of older people compared to younger people seem more racist, generational thing? maybe, a lot of older people were brought up in a time when the older type racist terms were considered normal. All very sad really, we just seem to go backwards sometimes as a civilization.February 8, 2019 at 9:52 am #137175
Been thanked: 257 times
DM – yes, sadly racism has increased. Why? The politics and rhetoric of Trump, and UKIP in particular with their rhetoric surrounding the referendum, and the Tories with their campaigns to send people back, have all made racism seem less offensive and more respectable.
Also, the general perception fostered by the right wing press that our current malaise is due to the EU and foreigners in general, rather than failed Tory policies.
And as 99 said, social media and its visual reporting/broadcasting, as well as the clever manipulation of some gullible public with propaganda, comments and articles (even on here) means some will be influenced to think they aren’t alone – that many more actually hold the same daft views as they do; that racist views are somehow respectable because they can read others saying the same thing online.
And as usual, it’s often the least educated and the poorest who are the most racist, and most open to manipulation.
Is it really our time?
1 user thanked author for this post.February 8, 2019 at 9:54 am #137176
Mrs NI wanted to buy some daffs the other week (she always gets some this time of the year as it’s her mother’s birthday at the end of Jan). There were none to be had in the local supermarkets but she eventually found some on a plant stall in Hexham market.
She related her story to the stall holder who explained that European migrant workers had in previous years done much of the cutting in the bulb fields, but this year there were not enough workers so many of the flowers were still in the fields not in the shops.
Mrs NI avoided asking the obvious question!February 8, 2019 at 11:13 am #137181
Been thanked: 70 times
Racism is always at its worst levels when the economy is struggling, and foreigners are always a easy target to blame. There will always be Tommy Robinson types, who will ride the wave of increased racism, but who are so limited they will never attract many. The Nigel Farage types are the ones to worry about, they manage to spread the racism and make it acceptable to the masses.
If the government want to reduce racism, they should work on reducing the ever increasing gap between the the rich and the poor.
1 user thanked author for this post.February 8, 2019 at 12:11 pm #137182
Yet none of the racists voted leave apparently and it did not have any impact on the final result!!February 8, 2019 at 12:16 pm #137183
Been thanked: 75 times
Social media is the biggest cause. The younger generation coming to an age where they see fake glorified news on idiots for example Tommy Robinson, are led to believe he is a hero. Are gullible enough to like his social media page which in turn then shows pages on similar people/stories where idiots are painted to be fighting for the better of our country which we know is garbage they tell a story which because its on facebook,instagram and twitter “must be true” but in reality is preaching hate in a brain washing way (people see what they want to see) its a sad society now there should be more control on these “social media platforms” they monitor pages you read or like and show more of the same material.February 8, 2019 at 4:51 pm #137208
Well, why am I not remotely surprised. That’s right, guys, talk about racism except, of course, when it’s practised by the Labour party. When that happens just pretend it doesn’t exist. Move on, talk about something else. The really sad thing here is that unless and until the Labour party accepts it has a major problem with racism things in this country will just continue to get worse and worse.
I agree there’s racism in the Tories and I for one make it very clear how unacceptable it is. That way, at least, I can make a difference and over time it will diminish; and, hopefully, disappear all together. I certainly see and hear far less of it now, thank goodness, as the old guard dies off. There are many younger Tories who don’t and won’t tolerate it, which has to be a good thing.
But you just go on fooling yourselves that there isn’t a problem in the Labour party, starting at the very top, incidentally.
NI, in response to the ‘obvious’ question, are you suggesting that this should be done by European migrant workers? Is that all these people are good for — picking daffs? The reason the daffs are still in the fields is because British workers won’t do the work — just let the migrants do that sort of stuff.
How dreadful for you not to have your daffs, eh?!February 8, 2019 at 6:35 pm #137217
Bucks you take the biscuit with your self-righteous claptrap! And your sarcastic last sentence is insulting.
The question is that all of these prats spouting racial slurs are the very ones that want their Indian takeaways, go to their Lebanese restaurants, drink their Italian coffee, go to the Turkish barbers and shop in the Polish deli. They drive around in French, German and Korean cars and buy clothes made in Bangladesh and Vietnam. They rely on those from outside the UK for almost everything without even realising it, yet said workers are abused at the drop of a hat.
But hey, if you want to read something else into it go ahead!February 8, 2019 at 7:24 pm #137227
Maybe I am being self-righteous, NI, but I’m just trying to be honest; and if you think what I’m saying about Labour is claptrap then I believe the Labour party has a mega problem.
Regarding the last sentence, yes, it was pretty insulting. Given your story is about European migrants in a thread about racism it seems reasonable to assume this was aimed at those who voted for Brexit. Heath appeared to think so. Does it not occur to you that for the many people who voted Brexit for reasons that have nothing whatever to do with racism comments such as yours are not only completely incorrect but also insulting?
I don’t think European migrants aren’t here because of racism but for purely pragmatic reasons given we’re leaving the EU; and what I struggle to understand is why we, as a country, expect European migrants to do the work that we won’t in the first place. That’s why the daffs are still in the field.
Of course I could be completely wrong about what you were saying. If that is the case then I’ll be very happy to apologise.February 8, 2019 at 7:32 pm #137228
Funny how BA in his right wing dogma mode never mentions Boris, king of the throwaway racist remark for many a year but that’s ok because he’s a proper Tory boy. What a pathetic excuse for a politician BJ is.
1 user thanked author for this post.February 8, 2019 at 8:28 pm #137236
Blimey, look, I’m not trying to be smart or clever with the OP Bucks, I genuinely wondered what fellow posters thought about the rise of racism in football. I appreciate our forum discussions often veer off track and end up in a spat about Labour v Conservative, but I think anyone objectively reading this thread will find your post at 4.51pm quite bizarre. I’d imagine they may be thinking why you have brought up racism in the Labour Party with so much incredulity in a thread that had managed to steer clear of left v right. I’ll be honest with you, I read through other posters comments and thought it refreshing untill I got to your anti-labour diatribe. Disappointing. You’re better than that.February 9, 2019 at 12:40 am #137247
My point, the “obvious question”, based upon the example I quoted was that we are more reliant upon workers from outside this sceptred isle than the bigots realise.
I never suggested that migrant workers are only good enough for menial tasks or that Brits can’t be arsed with such work. I don’t know as I’m not in that business. Nor am I out to score party political points as this is a subject that is universal across all doctrines.
Bucks, I enjoy reading your take on things but when you start to twist poster’s words in order to sound like you’re some wise old sage then it starts to grind. As Deerey says, you’re better than that.February 9, 2019 at 12:56 pm #137270
I’m no fan of Boris, Heath. I’ve criticised him heavily on here for the words he chooses to use, which can be very provocative.
Regarding your point, Deerey, there’s no point getting into a slanging match and I appreciate you’re no more interested in that than I am.
You raised Brexit and I don’t think there’s any doubt that some people will have used the result as an excuse for their appalling behaviour. However, my point is that what’s happening in politics across the board is having a major impact on racism in football and that very much includes what’s happening in the Labour party.
I’ve been very open about the fact that there’s racism in the Tory party, though it’s limited primarily to older members and is diminishing, thank goodness. I’m yet to see a single comment on this board that accepts the same is true for Labour. Not a single comment, ever. Maybe I’ve just missed it?
Maybe you don’t want to believe that what’s happening in Labour is racism, but it is. Labour MPs and members themselves are saying this openly and very publicly. The fact that Labour’s leadership refuses to act on this gives a green light to racism as much as the referendum ever did.
Finally, NI, your opening sentence is very revealing. You have your views, which I fully respect, and of course there are bigots who voted for Brexit for the very reasons you’re outlining, but suggesting that this is representative of those who did is, quite frankly, nonsense. I’m sorry if that sounds personal but I’m afraid it really is nonsense.
The irony for me is that this whole idea of Brexit being bad because it reduces the number of European migrant workers coming in smacks of colonialism. We won’t do such menial work so let’s get the foreigners to do it for us. It’s also worth pointing out that anyone who believes the EU is a role-model for workers’ rights should watch Simon Reeves’s programme about the Mediterranean, which revealed the appalling plight of migrant workers in Spain. This is happening in the full gaze of the EU, which does nothing. In any event, once we’ve left the EU there will be nothing to stop migrant workers coming from all over the world.
I should say, NI, that I’m not suggesting for one moment that you have anything other than the very best of intentions in mind. People should think very carefully about attaching labels to Brexit and those who voted for it.February 9, 2019 at 5:22 pm #137284
‘Nothing to stop migrant workers coming in from all over the world’. Are you sure about that? I thought a large part of the leave campaign was about limiting immigration. Not sure those comments would go down well in certain quarters Bucks.February 9, 2019 at 6:34 pm #137295
What label would you use for Brexit Bucks?
A great F up is my current favourite!!February 10, 2019 at 12:46 pm #137347
I’m absolutely sure about that, Deerey. The vast majority of people who voted Brexit because of immigration don’t have a racist bone in their bodies. They just want more control over immigration, not to stop it. People forget that the EU has controls, which is why the migrant crisis has caused so many problems. So why aren’t people accusing the EU of racism?
Heath, it’s been pretty much as I expected. Anyone who’s ever been involved in a high-stakes negotiation — or, I’ve no doubt, a messy divorce — will recognise much of what’s happened and continues to happen.
I don’t think you should underestimate the part played by the EU in all of this. The rules are very clear that countries can leave the EU, but the EU wants to play dirty because it’s worried others will follow the UK if it doesn’t punish us in some way for doing so. On top of this Theresa May made a monumental error by running the worst election campaign in living memory, which obviously has left her in a weakened position with no clear majority.
I’ve always maintained this would go “right down to the wire” and I still believe that to be the case. I also said that I wouldn’t be surprised if the deadline is extended, though not by long, to get a deal through; and again I think this will be down to the EU as much as the UK.
Here’s why. The eurozone’s in a real mess — far worse that the UK economy. Germany’s effectively in recession, Italy’s on the brink of one and France likewise. Italy’s already struggling to service its debt and the recession will make it impossible for her to do so — there’s already talk that Italian debt will effectively become ‘junk’; and with France and Germany’s very weak economies this would cripple the euro.
Add to that Ireland’s position. Most of that country’s trade comes through the UK, to say nothing of the local trade between the republic and Northern Ireland. No-deal would pretty much flatten Ireland just as it’s getting back on its feet after the financial crisis, which was created by the eurozone just as much as by the banks, btw.
The reality of no-deal’s now starting to hit EU countries. It’s easy for Junker, Tusk and Barnier to talk as they do but not for the heads of each country who are accountable to their electorate. I’m sure that if there’s no-deal on 29 March the EU would want to extend the deadline and a deal will be done. Frankly, it has no choice because the alternative would be every bit as devastating for the EU and its member states as for the UK, in fact more so because their economies are in a much worse state than ours.
Actually, I don’t think no-deal would be anything like as bad for the UK as people believe. For the simple reason that it would be in everyone’s interests to work together. In fact I doubt much would change at all in the short-term. Planes would continue to fly, borders would continue to function — including in Ireland with nothing ‘hard’ required at all — and medicines would continue to be delivered.February 10, 2019 at 1:28 pm #137355
For the simple reason that it would be in everyone’s interests to work together.
We were all working together fine, home and abroad, before the referendum.
Far more suspicion and mistrust around now then there ever was. That’s going to take a long time to change.February 10, 2019 at 1:34 pm #137357
I do not think that everyone who wanted to control immigration is a racist. However, an uptake in racism since the refererendum shows that racists and xenophobes have been empowered by the result, and that for them talk of reducing not eliminating immigration is a euphemism; a bigot is unlikely to be open about their stance. Again, I am not saying that everyone who says this is bigoted, just that the bigots use similar arguments to justify their position, before anyone jumps to conclusions. These people would have undoubtedly been pro-Brexit, as xenophobes would not be easily won over by a remain campaign which would have meant keeping freedom of movement, which would be a no go for such people. And prominent Leave figures were stoking the fires with untrue comments about migrants, refugees and Turkey joining the EU and then flooding the nation with migrants. Such matters would not have been major talking points if there weren’t a number of Brexiters who had prejudiced and closed minded views on this. So, yes, such stoking of hate is the responsibility of such figures, just as stoking of anti-Semitism is on many prominent Labour figures, even if they have not engaged in such abuse to the same extent as their acolytes.
Ensuring that the UK doesn’t retain aspects of the EU while being outside of it is not ‘playing dirty.’ It’s an inevitable consequence of leaving a trade area; the EU don’t want other countries to leave by setting a precedent where such agreements are meaningless. What is disingenuous is for the British government to renegade on the backstop, when it was agreed by them and covered May’s red lines. It’s hardly setting a bar on honesty and trust for future trade negotiations with the EU or with others. But, hey, the Brexit policy at the minute seems to be reliant on other countries bending to our whims on the basis of our portrayed economic strength, so perhaps we shouldn’t be surprised that we’ve not engaged with then issue openly.
Efforts in forging trade deals with other countries, such as Japan, are becoming fraught as they are demanding greater concessions than they did with the EU, which flies in the face of Brexiter rhetoric about countries flocking over to trade on our terms. After complaints that trade deals with the outside world were taking too long to establish, while within EU framework, it’s somewhat odd to see many Brexiters treat the prospect of facing such long drawn out trade deals so apathetically.
The problem is that issues from no deal may not be possible to mitigate sufficiently even while working together, and renegading on deals, playing the victim while attacking trade partners with absurd references to the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany are not likely to engage motivated cooperation. The whole idea that we should rely on a strong economy, and sod greater diplomacy, is a relic of the past, which should have stayed there, and is precisely why the EU exists.
Also, talk of other countries needing to respect the electorate is true. However, I have seen little evidence that they are bothered enough to care greatly. The Germans have polled largely in support of the EU’s stance, the French don’t care, eastern European EU citizens are not that bothered unless they are based here and are concerned over their rights to stay and the Irish back the EU’s stance on the border. There is little motivation for the politicians to start pressurising the EU into accepting something else.February 10, 2019 at 1:47 pm #137362
NI: If only a formal European political and economic union which enables cooperation between members existed, allowing countries to work together to ensure that there are homogenised trade regulations in place to prevent potential bureaucratic holdups at borders, preventing the hold up of medicines and food in a situation like this. If only it existed…February 10, 2019 at 4:35 pm #137371
BRI – I think you may be on to something there.
If such a Union existed we could benefit from trade deals with countries like Japan. They would clearly see the benefit of signing a common deal with 28 countries rather than 1 country at a time. That would encourage countries like Japan to invest in the car industry in our country with just in time manufacturing and no tariffs.
We could have no roaming charges for using our phones throughout Europe.
It would help with recruitment in our hard pressed NHS and give our children the benefit of working anywhere in Europe.
It could also prevent one in three of our businesses from having to move headquarters to Europe.
We may have to accept immigrants coming from Europe to work here. But the vast majority are hard workers and get jobs. We have not made much effort to control immigration from non EU countries which year after year has been 3 times higher than “the tens of thousands”.
It would allow our country to concentrate all their efforts on dealing with the massive social issues we currently have and create a fairer society. Just like Mrs May promised in her speech outside Downing Street after she took over from that failure Cameron.
Unless someone can come up with a better plan, CLEARLY pointing out the benefits, I will support your idea BRI.
And I am not interested if somebody is foolish enough to post “I don’t think no-deal would be anything like as bad for the UK as people believe”. That does not sound a very convincing argument to me!!!!February 10, 2019 at 6:20 pm #137378
CLEARLY pointing out the benefits, Heath? Sorry, but from the comments you make I don’t think you’re remotely interested in the benefits of leaving the EU.
No doubt you’ll ask what the benefits are but it’s pointless responding. You’ll just claim there’s no evidence for anything, etc, etc, etc.
Regarding no-deal, how is it in anyone’s interests to do anything other than work together to minimise the problems for mutual benefit should this happen? Of course no-deal’s being painted as the ultimate disaster because it suits those who want to stay close to Europe to say it. The world was going to come to an end after the referendum if we voted “no”, but it didn’t.
The real irony is that the UK economy’s done much, much better than those in the eurozone, including both Germany and France since the referendum.February 10, 2019 at 7:08 pm #137386
“I don’t think you’re remotely interested in the benefits of leaving the EU”.
Oh you do underestimate me Bucks. I am VERY interested to hear of the benefits from you. I think it’s your duty to tell all. How could anybody recommend such a momentous change without having a CLEAR understanding of what the benefits are.
So don’t keep them to yourself. I want to hear them.February 11, 2019 at 8:59 am #137404
The point is that working together more amicably won’t necessarily alleviate problems over border checks. They’re not going to suspend checking of cargo to ensure compliance with terms to make things easier, reducing the need for a trading bloc in the process.February 11, 2019 at 9:15 am #137409
Buck’s has never allowed the facts to get in the way of a piece of right wing dogma, however I hugely respect his right to post such opinion.😂😂😂February 11, 2019 at 9:47 am #137412
You must be logged in to reply to this topic.