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  • #137074

    THE-99%
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    I’d also say the reason we have this Tory government is remain wreckers sabotaging Corbyns campaign, the result was so close despite the most hostile press , not only from Tories but actually from Labour MPs writing in Tory tabloids,BBC giving massive air time to Jess Phillips and other plotters on HIGNFY and loading QT with them too.Despire this Labour had huge gains ,Imagine what may have been without the wreckers from remain

    #137075

    Deereyme66
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    The BBC is constantly accused of bias from both sides and people read right wing of left wing bias in to programmes and pieces to suit their agenda. Blaming remain politicians air time on programmes that average around 4m viewers is a small factor in the reason why there’s a Tory govt now. It’s too simplistic and convenient to blame remain politicians in this context, not least because HIGNFY viewers are predominantly left wing in the first p!ace. One could equally argue Labour made more significant gains than expected due to multiple reasons including a smart social media campaign, effective mobilisation of street campaigners and quite simply because May and her cabinet were and are useless. I don’t doubt the establishment will do anything in its power to prevent a socialist government but to blame remain politicians and voters for the current state of play is scapegoating that plays in to Tory hands. As a left wing leaver, blaming remain for a Tory govt and a hard Brexit (though I should remind you that’s not happened yet btw, funny how you’re taking it as a given) is simply what you want people to believe. How you think this will do a socialist cause any good in the future is a mystery.

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    #137081

    THE-99%
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    I’m not blaming voters,just those that campaigned,😉
    Yes a good non main stream campaign was hugely helpful,imagine if Phillips and other backstabbers,all remainers had not fed the main stream narrative ,it had a massive impact. It’s crass to say it isn’t

    #137083

    Gurnelista
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    Morning Lesgeo and son,

    The tape starts now:

    Les, we have been looking over your mails on UKIP. You have been closely associated with the party, particularly through Jonathan, your son. You have also in the past, posted many pieces of pro-UKIP propaganda on here.

    Please take a look at this document Les (hands over a propaganda email). We would like to know Les, what you think of writing emails with statements such as:

    “Attempts to claim major job losses with Brexit are baseless.”

    And

    “Firms leaving Britain after Brexit – evidence not given”

    And

    “They don’t call the EU the ‘evil empire’ for nothing”

    We would like to know Les, what you think of UKIP now.

    We would like to know Les, why these mails or parts of them are also found ‘verbatim’ on websites of far-right Christian activists like:

    https://briangemmell.blogspot.com/2016/06/

    http://propheticwitnessmovementnewportbranch.blogspot.com/2016/06/before-voting-in-referendum-please.html

    and the extraordinarily racist ‘Truth Wars’ website

    https://truth-wars.co.uk/forum/index.php/board,21.0.html

    Now Lesgeo, there’s no connection between yourself and chief contributor to Truth Wars known as ‘the Leveller’ is there? He even claims to be a good Catholic, while putting up pieces like ‘Farage Brilliant in Australia’, ‘an Evening with Enoch Powell’ and ‘Katie Hopkins at the For Britain Conference’, together with assorted pro-BNP pieces.

    Don’t you find it odd that all contributions are anonymous and nothing is attributed? Why do you think this might be?

    Les, you are a long time kipper of over 15 years standing. You state in one of your emails of June 11 2014, 7.33 am, that ‘I know the party inside out and am always truthful’, so we think you and Jonathan really have some important questions to answer, particularly the way the country has been pushed into a position of epic stupidity (like arguing about the existence of gravity) by a couple of dozen snake-oil salesmen who had no plan on how to leave the EU safely. I think we should be told and await your answers.

    OK tape stopped at 11.45am.

    #137084

    BloodyRubbishIron
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    The 99%: Then isn’t it the responsibility of the leader to cater for those who may have different views under the same party? Corbyn was accepted within Labour, and not kicked out, despite differences with previous leaders’ visions. The least he can do is to do the same for those different to him, and if he can’t persuade them to fully back him then that’s on him.

    Besides, I’m not sure if their concerns and ‘lack of full support’ for Corbyn really influenced greatly. I do not think that the root of concerns with most Corbyn-skeptics lies with that of Jess Phillips et al. The Labour dissenters are just echoing the concerns of the unconvinced, and they have been fairly quiet in their opposition to Corbyn since the last leadership election.

    #137089

    THE-99%
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    If it didn’t influence they wouldn’t be all over MSM doing pressers,ridiculous to claim it didn’t while saying a red bus and blue passport is why everyone voted leave.
    Corbyn gave several dissenters, including backstabber Dakin, key roles.Before and after the chicken coup,He also backed Kahn for London Mayor,he also arranged him in the back afterwards.
    I don’t remember Blair etc giving Corbyn a front bench role.

    #137095

    BloodyRubbishIron
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    And Dakin and co worked with him in their roles, the most vocally anti-Corbyn didn’t take such roles, as is their right, and behaved in no worse a way than Corbyn did under Blair, Brown or Miliband. Dakin and co lost faith in Corbyn’s poor leadership skills demonstrated throughout his whole time as leader and voted for a no confidence motion in him, as many MPs have done with poor leaders previously; it was hardly a coup. Besides, that has little to do with the 2017 election and people’s doubts in Corbyn were fermented prior to then, so their actions in 2017 had little bearing. What Phillips et al. were saying were not different to what doubters already believed.

    #137099

    THE-99%
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    to say media campaign have no effect is ridiculous and you know it .To pretend otherwise is dishonest in my opinion,
    Not a coup,they had a no confidence vote and got trounced,put back in their boxes.
    As a leader he has seen these pretenders off time and time again,made the labour party the biggest in Europe and they still say he’s no leader as he’s not got a glossy suit and isn’t a thatcherite

    #137102

    BloodyRubbishIron
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    Blaming the media for Corbyn’s failings is such a cop out. Corbyn’s failing are there to see and people react negatively to him because of what he’s said, not what some backbench Labour MP says on a tv show which doesn’t yield that much of a viewership compared to Corbyn’s aired comments on the news.

    #137128

    Deereyme66
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    I’d wager most Labour voters, members and politicians are intelligent enough to see through the media’s negative portrayal of Corbyn and his close allies, and the dissent of careerist Labour MPs, to focus on what he says and writes to make up their own minds about him. To suggest otherwise would be patronising.

    #137136

    Bucksiron
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    “Ha ha ha Bucks! So now you’re agreeing with someone you label a liar. You couldn’t make up this pantomime. You reap what you sow.”

    I have no problem agreeing with anyone, Deerey, if I believe they’re making a valid point.

    More to the point it’s fascinating to see those of you on the left tear each other apart. Poor old Gurny hasn’t even received his customary “great post” for his entirely predictable personal attack.

    #137140

    Deereyme66
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    You may call it tearing each other apart, I call it constructive debate. It’s what the Labour Party is all about. For better or worse. Better to argue about topics in public that we feel strongly about than
    the Tory way: Shakespearean backstabbing in the name of power. I’m not for one minute suggesting this doesn’t happen in Labour: it’s just not a guiding principle.

    #137190

    IronIronIron
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    Constructive debate? If spouting your opinion on a website and then reading someone elses opinion is classed as constructive debate, then yes you are correct. However, in my view, all people are doing is making their own position clear and belittling others – mainly through abuse, with little if any discussion taking place.

    I was once told on the football forum to go onto the non football forum for some “proper debating”. I have yet to see it.

    #137205

    Bucksiron
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    You’re absolutely correct, III. People on here keep telling me how bad things are for the Tories, but if the above counts as constructive debate then God help the Labour party.

    #137207

    Iron-awe
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    I will reply Bucks by saying God help this country under Mrs Mays “strong and stable leadership” (her words not mine) she is showing something entirely opposite over Brexit, oh and on calling needless elections.

    #137209

    Bucksiron
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    I’m no fan of Theresa May, IA, and nor are the vast majority of Tory members. In fact I completely agree with you.

    The point is that I know things are bad in the Tories. But you just carry on kidding yourself all is well in Labour. That’s absolutely fine by me.

    #137224

    Iron-awe
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    Are things all well in any political party at anytime Buck’s?, I think we both know the answer to that, the divisions in politics is a reflection of the divisions in the country as a whole. Whoever you vote for Buck’s, there are tough times facing this country for many years to come, no matter which party or which leader is supposedly in charge. I am no fan of Jeremy Corbyn but I am no fan of the way a lot of people in this country are being treated under this government or the previous one led by the idiot Cameron. Tough times lay ahead Bucks and it follows tough times a lot of ordinary people have been suffering since 2010.

    #137231

    Bucksiron
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    I completely agree with much of what you say, IA, and obviously we hold different views and opinions on the reasons for why things are as they are. Nothing wrong with that.

    The problem I have with a lot of what people say on here — and I have to include yourself in this, IA, though it isn’t in any way personal — is that we never here how Labour is going to put any of this right. Yes, you can all tell me that Labour will get rid of homelessness, eradicate poverty, make the NHS perfect, etc, but you can never tell me how it’s going to do this.

    The plain truth is that achieving all of these things requires funding; and huge amounts of it, not just in the short-term but on a sustainable basis year after year. So how is Labour going to generate the wealth to achieve this?

    This is a genuine question, not a trick. While I’m sure things might appear better under Labour for a short while — throwing money at problems is easy — how do you sustain this under a socialist economy? The truth is you can’t but by all means prove me wrong.

    This seems a pretty reasonable question to me, but nobody is able to answer it.

    #137238

    Deereyme66
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    Bucks, you appear to have gone in to distortion mode. For goodness sake, Gurny will be calling for the white van soon. No one, no one has said Labour will eradicate poverty, homelessness and make the NHS perfect. I fear that might be merely in your head, and that my friend is rather worrying. Get a grip.

    #137245

    Heath
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    “The problem I have with a lot of what people say on here — and I have to include yourself in this, IA, though it isn’t in any way personal — is that we never here how Labour is going to put any of this right. Yes, you can all tell me that Labour will get rid of homelessness, eradicate poverty, make the NHS perfect, etc, but you can never tell me how it’s going to do this”.

    You’re very good at asking these big questions, but just like the party you support, your pretty shit at providing any answers yourself.

    If there is any consensus on here it is that things are very bad and the predictions are they will get a whole lot worse.

    So pray tell us why we should believe you that Brexit is a good idea for the country, because it seems to be that any optimism has completely drained away. The objective seems to be to keep the Tory party together, damage limitation, blind faith and not facing up to the facts that this was a very bad idea.

    Homelessness can not be completely eradicated but having a target of 2027 is a complete joke.

    Getting rid of this pitiful Government that has caused so many social problems would make a fine start.

    Agreeing with III whilst slagging off other contributions, a bit sad really.

    #137416

    Bucksiron
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    “No one, no one has said Labour will eradicate poverty, homelessness and make the NHS perfect.”

    I thought it was pretty obvious that I made the comment with tongue in cheek. In fact that’s only partly the case. Listening to Corbyn’s actually a bit like listening to Moses, which is ironic given what’s happening in the party right now.

    Heath, it’s remarkably simple — I believe firmly in open market forces, which create the environment for innovation and entrepreneurship necessary to generate the wealth that every country needs to survive and prosper. Brexit was a political decision made by the people of this country, though I believe there are many economic benefits as well. However, as I’ve said elsewhere it’s impossible to have a sensible debate because you’re not remotely interested in whatever I say.

    I’m still waiting for someone, anyone to tell me exactly how the socialist economic policies that McDonnell and Corbyn want to put in place will enable Labour to achieve what they’re claiming. Not a single person’s been able to do so, or has even attempted it, which is pretty revealing.

    Unless and until someone, anyone can do this I’ve no reason to believe this country under the current Labour party would do anything other than put more people into greater poverty. I say this for the simple reason that it wouldn’t be able to generate and sustain the wealth necessary to achieve these aims.

    #137433

    Heath
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    So please tell us more about these economic benefits from Brexit, because nobody else is doing. The indications are that many businesses will move their bases overseas (already happening, even extends to Rees Mogg and Mr Dyson), and will scrap investment plans in the UK (already happening), and that migrant workers will go home and pay their taxes there (already happening).

    I may be lacking a bit of your economic nous, but sounds to me that Brexit will deliver a massive hole in our tax receipts. If that is the case, where is the wealth going to be generated to tackle the massive social problems that have been created over the last 8 years of Tory rule.

    As I said on the other thread, I am very interested to hear from you about these CLEAR benefits from Brexit. I don’t have time to wait another 50 years!!!

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    #137435

    Gurnelista
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    The only ones on here that write manifestos are party shills seeking votes, and as we’ve already seen, they are full of lies.

    As for open-market forces creating wealth, it’s sub-gcse economics. But it’s far from the only thing they do. The results of slavish adherence to free markets and a woeful lack of regulation and state intervention are all around us, not just in the textbooks, but with a painfully crisis on every front.

    Democracy is wasted on those who follow politics like religion. That’s because, even though people can vote for change when things are impossibly bad, the fundamentalists of both hues still seek to argue for and maintain it. In this case the blue ones, some of whom are still in denial and spinning hard to get away from the real issues.

    Yet, that has to be a mistake when you consider that almost anything they and their families really value – votes for women, equal pay, paid holidays, the NHS, free access to education, good public services, pensions and workers’ rights – rights of all kinds which have all brought a more decent and civilised society with security and certainty to people’s lives – have all been proposed and introduced by the left and opposed by the right, and in many of these areas they still are.

    The same people still deny the obvious, and gleefully thwart attempts to reform an increasingly unequal society; the glass door for women at work, an increasing pay gap, increasing racism, the impossibility of security for the young, the disabled, the homeless… the ‘party of law and order’ has even cut the police to the bone, yet they stay silent or actually defend it.

    So, how to explain this? We know about the media / social media and the lies, but it’s often ignored that there are too many deferential ‘snowflakes’, keen to doff the cap and tug the forelock, shut up and put up. Not so much the young, who are often quite vociferous, but the older ‘flakes who still defer to the right and those in positions of authority, even though it clearly is not in their interests to do so. From a legion of expat ‘Leavers’ in Spain, to those in the north east and Nisan, it’s obvious that some turkeys still vote for Xmas.

    The kippers and Tories know this only too well and take advantage of it, actively persuading them to vote against their own interests using boards like this.

    There’s another bombing raid on the way if we have a hard Brexit. Yet, over on twitter Jonathan is tweeting, or rather bleating, that no deal is better than a bad deal (which for him is any deal other than no deal). He adds that any disruption, at least to banking, should only last 3-6 months. III, ask him how he can possibly know this, and ask exactly what, after 6 months, will return to being just as bad as it is now, rather than worse? And ask him to reveal the solution to the Irish border question while you’re at it.

    Oh, and ask who prepared the EU leaving plan, and where we can find a copy of it. Of course, Jonathan won’t be able to provide it because it doesn’t exist, just like the unicorn. He knows too well that snowflakes love a tale with unicorn.

    #137440

    Iron-awe
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    I think the majority of decent hard working people in this country who are on the verge of being shafted by Brexit, will know exactly where that Unicorn is going to bury his horn and it wont be up the ar++’s of the well off either!!!

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