December 28, 2020 at 11:48 am #199820
Big Jessie?December 28, 2020 at 11:58 am #199822
Big Joke more like, especially with that avatar.December 28, 2020 at 12:46 pm #199826
Traitor – a person who betrays someone or something.
History will determine who the real traitors are. Traitors who pursued policies for their own gain, knowing that they would cause significant harm to the people of this country and massively damage the reputation and standing of the country. Policies that risk the break up of the UK.
We won’t have to wait long for proof of who the REAL traitors are. Bucks said it is a fair deal. He clearly hasn’t read it!December 28, 2020 at 1:04 pm #199827
It’s as fair a deal as any that could be offered in the circumstances. The problem was always going to be that it was never going to be any better. Any argument that it wouldn’t have been were treated as project fear and just predictions, but that viewpoint is clear in how that can no longer be argued. What we have is not some equivalent to what we had and the means to make our economy as strong as possible with it, and the ability to keep our influence with it, leaves us weaker.
When push comes to shove I doubt the public will be screaming in delight at how sovereign we are if things worsen, and those thinking this is what really matters are just demonstrating how out of touch they are. Of course many may blame it on us being stabbed in the back by the EU, so I am not stating that hardship will lead to a resurgence in demand for us to rejoin the EU.
The pivot seems to be from we will get a deal on our terms, because we hold all the cards and they need us more than we need them to this deal is actually great, despite it clearly being in the EU’s favour, as it always was going to be. It’s true that many remainers were focussed solely on the threat of no deal, which has allowed this deal to be used as a bludgeon to them, but it doesn’t change the nature of how this deal is inferior to what we had before for us.
And those who thought that the referendum was the end of the Europe question, think again. The future is going to be dominated about whether we should seek closer relations with the EU, with potential talk of rejoining things like the Single Market, or demands from the Farages and ERG to go more towards WTO terms in future because this deal is a sell out with Johnson or whoever is in charge of the Tories trying to balance the best interests of the country with the demands of the ideologues, as it has been for the past few years.December 29, 2020 at 4:14 pm #199877Lord KitchenerParticipantOffline
Registered On: December 24, 2013
FFS! The War has been over 75 years!
We should be kicking Nationalism into the long grass and embracing International cooperation. This is the 21st Century. We need to go forward not backwards.
I hate this insular “pull up the drawbridge and keep out the foreigner” mentality. And as for Farage being a “patriot”! Well it is the pantomime season.
75 years, and we were not only supposed to be victorious, we also played a big part in the liberation of France. So instead of ‘going forewords’ as you eluded, we are expected to line the coffers of both the afore mentioned nations at the expense of our taxes.
This is the 21st century, that is correct. So all these ridiculous alliances, so much like those which dragged us into WW1, should be kicked into the long grass you mentioned. The disassembling of the EU would go a long way towards stopping those mistakes from ever happening again.
As for Mr Farage, he is every bit as much a patriot as anyone in that sh*thouse on the Thames. I just hope he doesn’t see this deal as the best of a bad lot and retires. He still has work to do.
Well that is it, I’m not a one for kicking a can down the road, so that’s all I’ve got to say for the time being.December 29, 2020 at 4:38 pm #199879
In the meantime stop trying to be clever and look up some words in a dictionary.December 29, 2020 at 4:41 pm #199880
You know, maybe show how much of a patriot you are by first respecting the English language.December 29, 2020 at 4:43 pm #199881
Well, given that the last few decades has seen the greatest period of peace and stability in Europe in the history of nationhood I think it’s silly to level the idea that the EU increases the risk of national conflict. In fact working together reduces tensions between nations, not the other way round. It’s not really the same as WWI where many states were in opposing alliances to each other. The Central Powers were not allied with France, Belgium or the UK.
If anything, leaving makes us more weak when dealing with actual hostile threats like China and Russia than stronger. I’d rather us work with likeminded nations, such as Germany and France against those truly opposed to us than relive jingoistic struggles against the Germans and French.
The nauseating chest thumping about WWII is tiresome and I am convinced a large part of the nationalism which played into the Brexit vote was fuelled by a desire of generations too young to experience the war wanting to relive the glories put on their forefathers through fighting against a continental menace. The problem being that the contintental menace doesn’t exist like it did in 1939, so we’re left with the jingoism of yelling at allies, instead of solidarity in the face of dangers from Russia and China.December 30, 2020 at 4:22 pm #199944
It’s NATO that’s kept the peace, not the EU. Without the USA, Europe’s toast. Leaving the EU doesn’t weaken our position against Russia or China at all.
I have no time for nationalism and while there will always be people who support it they are, fortunately, in the minority. Of course this is used by the likes of Gurnelista to stoke the fires because it suits his left-wing agenda but the reality is very different. That isn’t to say people aren’t patriotic but patriotism is very different from nationalism.
It’s very interesting to see the response to my comment about the vested interests of Ferrite and Gurnelista. I don’t blame anyone who has a vested interest and, of course, they’re entitled to their views and opinions as much as anyone else. I’m simply pointing out that their views and opinions are going to be influenced by those interests and should therefore be put into context.
As for the future the only people likely to be making a fuss will be the remainers who cannot accept the result of the referendum or the last election, which very much cemented the referendum result. I believe we can have a very strong and cordial relationship with the EU moving forward and that is very much what the British Government wants.
I suspect the argument will now turn to the Union and Scottish independence, in particular.December 30, 2020 at 4:32 pm #199945
Amazing. You mean ‘influenced by those interests’ that are unfounded? Because Gurnelista posted something in Spanish you suggested he has some sort of Spanish background? Has he verified this?
You ‘suspect the argument will now turn to the Union and Scottish independence, in particular.’ No s*** Sherlock. And who will you blame if they get independence and break up the Union? Remainers?December 30, 2020 at 4:34 pm #199946
But Bucks, is the deal that was passed today better than the one we had pre referendum or even Teresa May’s?December 30, 2020 at 4:36 pm #199948
‘As for the future the only people likely to be making a fuss will be the remainers’
Keep up with the news and watch Farage and co. There’s enough out there on social media to suggest they’ll be making a much bigger fuss than you anticipate.December 30, 2020 at 4:41 pm #199949
NATO has kept the peace when dealing with outside threats like Russia. The EU has allowed countries within its sphere of influence to iron out issues diplomatically. It’s because of this why it has a very strong contingent of support among the Europeans themselves, who recognise this as preferential to what was before.
Somehow I doubt Russia are quivering in their boots about the threat of the UK leaving the EU. In fact they see it as a benefit, which is why RT and their disinfo outlets were very much in favour of it. Do I think the EU is enough? No, I think it can do more, but it’s better for the EU states to be unified through such than as a ragtag group without the same influence when dealing with Russia and China. I never said it was the only thing, but those who see the world in a black and white lens might do, because it’s easier to portray opponents’ views as simplistic when no charity is given.
Yeah, yeah, we all heard the same guff about the withdrawal agreement; only a year later the same voices were telling us how we needed to break international law because it was so crap.
Anyone who thinks this deal is cemented in stone forever is in denial. Like I say, it is set for a refresh in five years time, in accordance with the EU (because it is reliant on them), so there will be more chatter and this will be about whether we should seek narrower or closer ties with the EU. And no referendum from roughly 10 years prior to that should be used as a means to shut down how we pursue our relationship, because this is a democracy, not a dictatorship where everything is set in stone and is unable to be questioned.
As for the debates over the union, it will have to factor in the sheer disregard Brexiters have held it, but I suspect they won’t accept any responsibility. Conservatives are the party which believes in personal responsibility when it’s not them who has to take responsibility for at least part of it.December 30, 2020 at 4:47 pm #199950
But Bucks, is the deal that was passed today better than the one we had pre referendum or even Teresa May’s?
That’s inconvenient now, since all that matters is passing a deal to claim victory over the other side. Who cares about the times they claimed it would be as good as before because the EU needs us more than we need them, so they will violate conditions to their trading blocs and unions for our benefit? If it means the UK is a weaker partner to the EU, so be it, we can just pretend to be rising again.December 30, 2020 at 8:37 pm #199961
If your passing a deal l do hope the cards are the right way round your not going to change anything but I’m sure you will come up with somethingDecember 31, 2020 at 1:11 pm #199975
“Amazing. You mean ‘influenced by those interests’ that are unfounded? Because Gurnelista posted something in Spanish you suggested he has some sort of Spanish background? Has he verified this?”
Hardly amazing, Deerey, given the number of times Gurnelista has referenced Spain and his use of the language on numerous occasions. In any event there’s no problem with this, any more than there is with Ferrite living in Italy. The reason I raise it is down to claims that those who voted for Brexit have done so “for their own gain”. I’ve no doubt this is true but it’s pure hypocrisy to make such claims given plenty of remainers’ have done exactly the same, not least Dominic Grieve with his very nice house in France and business interests in the EU.
As for the deal, yes, it’s much better than we had before the referendum. Even on fishing, which is the area that’s gained greatest criticism, the UK industry will now get a much greater share from UK waters.
As for “…all that matters is passing a deal to claim victory over the other side”, this is simply untrue. What remainers fail to understand is that we’re highly likely to have a better relationship with the EU now than we had while we were members, for the simple reason we can now focus on the mutual benefits of a close relationship instead of fighting against the EU’s move towards a federal union.
There are also areas where UK rules and regulations are significantly stronger than in the EU, which greatly weakens any argument that our standards and people’s rights will fall.
I’d say prospects for the UK are much stronger than for the EU, even taking covid into account.December 31, 2020 at 1:35 pm #199977
I can tell you work in PR, Bucks. It takes so much spin to regards a miniscule gain in fishing as some great win when the EU will still get most of our fish stock (https://twitter.com/MartinDaubney/status/1343147201112010753). Are we supposed to be jumping for joy at such a meagre compromise on the EU’s behalf, especially when fishing is such a small input to our economy? I mean, I get that it’s not all about the economy, the fishermen’s jobs matter too, but this does little to solve any of that issue for our favour, as was once argued by the Brexiters. The Brexiters, who have flip-flopped, are now selling this meagre gain as some great benefit, showing their disdain for those they claimed to care for. Do you think the fishermen care greatly about a small rise when they wanted complete control of fishing rights in the oceans? This deal still has the bulk going to the EU. I am not arguing it shouldn’t, these things are complex, but when Brexiters argued it needed to be in our control it’s a bit rich for them to be jumping for joy at a deal which doesn’t deliver what they promised to fishermen.
It takes a lot of spin to make out the gains of our services to the EU, which make the bulk of our economy, as some great win. The argument was once how we could get deals equivalent to the Single Market, because the EU would buckle to our demands as they need us more than we need them. Now it’s all about how this deal is great, because we need to save face, and let’s ignore how it doesn’t come close to matching what we hade before. We need more bureaucracy to ensure no tariffs are put on trade, time after time the UK had to extend deadlines to ensure a deal, not the other way round (showing who had the upper hand) and we pretend it’s great all round because now we can stop squabbling, as if a lot of that wasn’t driven by Brexiters refusing to engage with the EU project and couldn’t be avoided by any other means. It also presumes that the same people who have whined for 40 years are going to just accept that any negative is going to be their fault, not that of the EU or remainer saboteurs. John Crace has it bang on. The Tories are desperately trying to kid themselves that this is what they wanted because it suits party unity over what was actually promised. The country can go to rot so long as the Tories can stay together:
I eagerly await the Brexiter arguments about how we need to distance ourselves from ties made with the EU through this deal because it favours them too much (EU sabotage being blamed), just as we needed to distance ourselves from the withdrawal agreement after initially harping on about its greatness to own the remainers.December 31, 2020 at 2:57 pm #199982
As for the deal, yes, it’s much better than we had before the referendum.
Because???December 31, 2020 at 3:37 pm #199984
Look above, NI.
A miniscule gain, BRI, and you say that I’m spinning it?! There isn’t a single industry that would be anything other than delighted with a 25% increase and it’s abject nonsense to claim otherwise.
As for services, you couldn’t be further from the truth — the most important area of finance wasn’t even part of the deal. On financial services the UK dwarfs the rest of Europe even though the City was supposed to collapse if we voted to leave. Under equivalence, which is the route most likely to be taken by the EU after today the City will continue to thrive. In fact, if you want to see how poor the EU has become just look at the Wirecard scandal rocking Germany — and there’s a whole lot more to come out of the woodwork on this over the next 12 months.
In addition, given covid there’s very likely to be a spree of public offerings over the next 12 to 18 months and it won’t be Paris or Frankfurt gaining from these, but London. Meanwhile the mass exodus of companies away from the UK hasn’t just failed to materialise but, if anything, is now in the UK’s favour.
Companies don’t come much bigger than Unilever and it chose to move to the UK from the EU despite Brexit. The irony is that it’s the Dutch government threatening to impose a massive ‘exit tax’ in a desperate attempt to thwart this. So much for project fear. On top of that the digital services sector is also thriving in the UK, with more investment coming here than to the rest of Europe put together.
Your comment about “the country can go to rot so long as the Tories can stay together” reveals just how hollow your arguments are. It’s pure unadulterated political nonsense in the same vein as Gurnelista’s most famous comment of all time, that “the Tories are finished” months before the Conservatives won a massive mandate to get on and do Brexit.
Your final paragraph just smacks of bitterness.December 31, 2020 at 3:47 pm #199986
So when those claiming we need to get fishing rights under our control celebrate us not getting it back under our control (most will still go to the EU, as before) we’re supposed to see it as what was promised? Don’t make me laugh. This is not what was promised or believed by fishermen.
As for the rest, more PR guff.
And you show yourself up again at the end. Everyone who disagrees with you has to be duplicitous. You are an ideological hack. I rescind my apology, because you don’t care for honest debate.
It is impossible to debate with you, because you are more like Gurnelista than me. I give up. I have tried debating reasonably with you, arguing my stall, but all I get is personal abuse from you and accusations against my character just because I hold a different opinion. You truly are a wretched human being.
p.s. It’s not bitter to point our how hypocritical at least some Brexiters have been. It’s no more bitter than you or I making critique of Corbynites. I don’t think Tories or Brexiters are evil, but they are not immune from criticism when they go back on their word, as is their habit. That is my opinion of how many act, but you whine because you don’t want to be associated with such. Tough. You accuse remainers of stuff all the time, as is your right (and there are some truths in there), but you can’t expect Brexiters to be costed from criticism because it hurts your feelings. I am frankly tired of your hypocrisy over this and damning every liberal remainer as some duplicitous hack, while bemoaning those who say Tories are evil. You are no better, you nasty piece of work.December 31, 2020 at 3:59 pm #199988
Only an ideological hack like Bucks could state a deal which gives away 80% of its services to the EU and puts up greater trade barriers as the greatest deal in history, while damning critique as inherently duplicitous. Note, the former is ok to argue, the latter is what shows you up.December 31, 2020 at 4:34 pm #199994SideriteParticipantOffline
Registered On: December 12, 2014
It’s ok, BRI, calm down, take a breather and have a cuppa. We all know that Bucksiron is a massive:
Don’t take it to heart and do what TwoWrights does. Take him as a joke. :-)December 31, 2020 at 5:13 pm #199996Iron-aweParticipantOffline
Registered On: June 21, 2017
He’ll be back now Siderite claiming personal abuse, he never resorts to it you know 😂😂😂 you will also become a ” usual suspect ” but wear it as a badge of honour and remember our friend Buck’s has a troubled past so as you say, best to ignore him as a serious person.December 31, 2020 at 5:27 pm #199997
I’m sure that if we hadn’t got a deal, that Bucks would still claim it as the greatest “deal” in history.December 31, 2020 at 5:47 pm #200000
Look above, NI.
Yep! Done that. Still can’t see any evidence of it.
Or should I wait until next New Years Eve to see if your optimism is justified?December 31, 2020 at 6:39 pm #200001
You may have a point in there, Siderite, regarding taking him and it all less seriously. I would lay off the playground insults though myself.December 31, 2020 at 6:52 pm #200002
BRI, could you point out the personal abuse and accusations about your character that make me such ‘a wretched person’. Not that I ever receive any abuse, of course.
All that I’ve done is laid out the facts. You should check them; and, yes, I do think your final paragraph smacks of bitterness.
As for ‘promises’, these work both ways. We were promised all sorts of things by project fear, none of them remotely good and some of them truly appalling. It’s hardly an understatement to say they were designed to frighten the life out of people. Yet they failed, both to stop people voting the way they did or to materialise as a result of them doing so. The decision could still have been reversed at last year’s election. It wasn’t, in fact the complete opposite.
Some remainers just seem determined to see the worst in everything. NI, I can’t see you ever admitting to any evidence no matter how sound it might be. Of course it would have been great for the fishing industry to do better than it has, but it takes a pretty sad person to claim that a 25% increase in an industry is a bad thing. Or a highly politicised one. Take your pick.December 31, 2020 at 7:00 pm #200003
Let’s all do patty cake bakers man then the hokey Cokey and smile it’s, not worth getting so upset come on let’s hope the new year is better than the last one have a good one to you sllDecember 31, 2020 at 7:04 pm #200004
AllDecember 31, 2020 at 7:04 pm #200005
What exactly is bitter about pointing out the decorum of many Brexiters a year ago regarding the withdrawal agreement and how they then whined about how crap it was? The people who signed it into law were the same people who then made out we needed to break international law because it was so bad. When the same people make the same triumphant jubilations about this deal I am going to be sceptical at how joyous they will be in the future when it suits. I am prepared to accept that Brexiters aren’t evil, but they are not immune from criticism for their conduct (or at least some of them are), and I don’t see it as bitterness to point out my opposition to David Davis et al. who acted like this. And the fact that you keep saying any opinion against the EU has to be bitterness shows how little you understand about why you piss me and others off. Some may go way too far, but you are far from innocent. I take such to be a slander against my character. Ok, this is a football board, it’s hardly the end of the world, but you can’t expect people to react pleasantly to you when you show no charity.
You point out what you want to portray as being in benefit because of Brexit, but without even explaining the nuances, so no convincing there.
The fact is that Brexiters promised something better. When it doesn’t appear such prepare for criticism, no matter what remainers said. In years to come I hope the Brexiters own the consequences if ill, but there has been precious little of personal responsibility to date from them as a whole (and no, that is not out of bitterness, but an honest opinion based on the evidence I have seen; the fact that you are looking for otherwise shows you are not charitable to other opinions and see the world in a black and white view between the good Brexit and bitter remainers). We have seen that the deal favours the EU with regards to trade and services, the fishing rights are not some great gain (yes, more of it can be seen as good, but the fishermen wanted a great change, not a comparative drop in the ocean) and bureaucracy will increase to ensure trade is tariff free.
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