November 8, 2020 at 6:26 pm #197125
Therefore a fat man in a red suit and long beard, with a penchant for cookies, comes down the chimney of every household to deliver gifts every 25th December because he is immaterial too. And if one thing is immaterial is true, everything immaterial must be.
Same with the the Tooth Fairy, Harry Potter and the Force from Star Wars.November 8, 2020 at 6:29 pm #197127
Understanding what’s been said is so important.
Hopefully you really are trying to discover the truth?
We know the laws of logic are true.November 8, 2020 at 6:53 pm #197131
I am not arguing against that. I am arguing against the idea that logic being immaterial makes immaterial beings therefore true.November 8, 2020 at 7:36 pm #197140
….where do the immaterial laws of logic come from?
I think the light bulb reality is close.
Hope our friendly conversations will help you look further into this.November 8, 2020 at 7:52 pm #197143
The Force from Star Wars? Just as likely as God and just as logical according to this premise.November 8, 2020 at 7:56 pm #197146TwoWrightsParticipantOffline
Registered On: December 23, 2013
Don’t trust me – put your trust in Jesus Christ.
A lot of good that did in Auschwitz!November 8, 2020 at 9:47 pm #197156
They were Jews TW. The lot that had him crucified.
When that there God does revenge he doesn’t muck about.November 8, 2020 at 9:58 pm #197158
Deflecting away from the issue of immaterial laws of logic and saying the Force from Star Wars just as likely as God! Hope you think through your logic in that statement!!!November 8, 2020 at 10:56 pm #197166
You answered my question about faith or belief by suggesting I read a part of the bible BPG. If we’re playing that game I would suggest you read Beyond Good and Evil by Friedrich Nietzsche. In your parlance, who knows, you may see the light?November 8, 2020 at 10:59 pm #197168
For further reading i would suggest Genealogy of Morality by Nietzsche. It’s not a heavy tome but is a cracking read.November 9, 2020 at 7:33 am #197172
Deflecting away from the issue of immaterial laws of logic and saying the Force from Star Wars just as likely as God! Hope you think through your logic in that statement!!!
No deflecting from anything; I’ve specifically referenced logic as being immaterial. You say that the laws of logic need God to explain their existence. Yet God has as much evidence as the Force, so if we need to have something to explain their existence then the Force is just as likely to be the cause.
I am just pointing out the ridiculousness of the logic behind your statement of laws of logic are immaterial, therefore God. This isn’t evidence for God and is a massive leap of logic to assume that we need God to explain logic.
Logic is immaterial, but that doesn’t mean everything immaterial exists. It doesn’t mean that it requires an immaterial thing to explain its existence.November 9, 2020 at 9:08 am #197179
The laws of logic are immaterial – they haven’t been “ invented” by man- all the examples you quote Father Christmas the force in Star Wars are man invented. Where do the laws of logic lead us …only you can answer that.November 9, 2020 at 9:22 am #197182
DEEREYME66- Nietzsche,Hume,Feverbach,Marx,Jean-Paul Sartre all great philosophers.
The two realms in Nietzsche’s ideas very interesting.
Have you read the “Bondage of the Will “by Jonathan Edwards?
In the final analysis your problem with the existence of God is not intellectual,it’s not because there’s insufficient information,it’s not because God’s manifestation has been obscure,you problem is not intellectual,it’s moral.
The problem is not that you can’t know God,the problem is you don’t want God.
I did a sermon on Zoom the other Sunday and I asked the question,
How are you here right now,believing in God,while some of your friends ( who may be more moral and intelligent than you) still hate him? what happened?
Take another look at the GOOD NEWS that’s in the Gospel.November 9, 2020 at 10:11 am #197187
The laws of logic are immaterial – they haven’t been “ invented” by man- all the examples you quote Father Christmas the force in Star Wars are man invented. Where do the laws of logic lead us …only you can answer that.
God is also invented by man, so far as I can see. However, the point is we don’t need a magical essence to determine the effects of logic.
We can see the effects of logic through observation of how logic dictates outcomes. We don’t need a God to explain it no more than we need The Force. God or no God 2+2=4.November 9, 2020 at 10:23 am #197190
I take it you mean Feuerbach BPG? Yes, read a little along with Jaspers and Buber. All required a giant leap of faith as I recall so I didn’t waste my time with those for too long, not when empiricists like Hume seem to make much more sense to me. I found Kant fascinating, whilst ultimately being a God lover, and Nietzsche’s critiques on Christianity to sound more plausible than the bible.
“Bondage of the Will “by Jonathan Edwards? Do you mean by Martin Luther or Freedom of the Will by Edwards? No, not read either. They don’t float my boat from the synopses tbh.
As for your sermon, why do you think people hate God? Personally, even if you proved the existence of God I wouldn’t him / her / it.November 9, 2020 at 10:28 am #197192
BPG is at an impasse because he thinks those who disbelieve don’t genuinely do so and don’t want to know or hate God. This is not the case, as I do not hate which I don’t think exists.November 9, 2020 at 10:49 am #197195
Ephesians chapter 2 verse 1-3.
The Bible says in the “flesh “ you do HATE God.
“As for you,you were dead in transgressions and sins,in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air,the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.All of us also lived among them at one time,gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts.Like the rest,we were by nature deserving of wrath.”
There is GOOD NEWS, his name and our saviour is JESUS CHRIST.November 9, 2020 at 10:51 am #197196
The Bible might say that, but it means nothing because the Bible is fallible. It’s hardly a great psychoanalysis of why people disbelieve and it doesn’t show that any of us hate God.November 9, 2020 at 11:18 am #197198
My favourite bits are the murders, incest and enslavement.
You forgot the rape Mel.
Check out Judges 19. 22-30. It’s a doosie! Quentin Tarantino eat your heart out.
At best it’s a biased history of Jewish tribes in the Eastern Mediterranean between the Bronze Age and the Roman occupat
But really it’s a fairytale. Scholars don’t even know who wrote it and when.
No more believable than Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings.
Wow. Literally – just WowNovember 9, 2020 at 1:16 pm #197208
Why are you wowed?November 9, 2020 at 1:28 pm #197209November 9, 2020 at 1:49 pm #197211
The Bible might say that, but it means nothing because the Bible is fallible. It’s hardly a great psychoanalysis of why people disbelieve and it doesn’t show that any of us hate God.
I’m quite happy for people to be as religious as they like and to believe anything they want. As long as they’re happy it’s all good.
But remember what happened when the church used to have real power? Beheadings, wars and burnings at the stake for non-believers. I believe there are several Muslim countries where apostasy still carries the death penalty.
I find most religions quite scary once you scratch beneath the surface. It starts off with tea with the vicar and finishes with WW3.November 9, 2020 at 4:18 pm #197215
You know what I’ve noticed with my debates on here with atheists is that I have never heard one of them say ,”EVEN THOUGH I DON’T AGREE WITH YOU BILL,HOW I WISH THAT WERE TRUE.”
That surprises me because I can’t imagine why any human-being wouldn’t want it to be true,that there’s a God who was willing to forgive them of every sin that they’ve ever committed,a God that will give them life that will go forever,a God that will guarantee to them that everything that takes place in their existence is significant and there’s no such thing as futility in their labour.
What I’m always engaged with in discussions with atheists is with a spirit of hostility and people seem to be saying, MAN,THAT IS BAD NEWS,DON’T TALK TO ME ABOUT THE EXISTENCE OF GOD.”
But as it says in Romans chapter 8 verse 7
“The mind governed by the flesh is hostile to God.”
Have a look at the word of God in the Holy Bible and put your trust in Jesus Christ.November 9, 2020 at 4:21 pm #197216
Or it could be that people don’t like being preached to?November 9, 2020 at 5:51 pm #197219Iron-aweParticipantOffline
Registered On: June 21, 2017
Or it could be that people don’t like being preached to?
….or being sold a pup!!! 🐕 even worse a dead one.November 9, 2020 at 6:38 pm #197221November 9, 2020 at 7:20 pm #197225
It was me!
In case you don’t have a copy of the KJV handy (and why would you in the 21st century?) it goes like this: –
22 Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him.
23 And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly.
24 Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.
25 But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.
26 Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man’s house where her lord was, till it was light.
27 And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold.
28 And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.
29 And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel.
30 And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.
“Once upon a time in
HollywoodIsrael” Sodomy, rape and murder. Just the thing to read to the kids at Sunday school.November 10, 2020 at 10:38 am #197237
A big thumbs up to God for coming up with a vaccine 👍
Way to go Big Man!November 10, 2020 at 11:12 am #197238HeathParticipantOffline
Registered On: August 5, 2017
But will he have added a special hidden potion to punish the unbelievers?
Who do you trust more, God or Hancock?November 10, 2020 at 6:43 pm #197269
Unfortunately there is conclusive proof that one of those two exists.
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